Reef Hobby going down the drain

[AbjectMaelstroM]

These forums have been instrumental in my endeavor into this hobby. As I said earlier, coming in blind makes it hard to learn as you don't know what you don't know.

While this forum may not be perfect for everyone, but it gave me the threads pull on and follow further and learn; then when I got to the end, the community was there to fill in the gaps and answer all of my questions.

Plus, where else can you get help in minutes when the crap hits the fan with your tank at 2am and you have an emergency?

 

[ScottR]

While I agree with most of your gripes. Like how expensive this hobby is starting to become. Bad info or just no info for people. People giving wrong or misguided advice. I see a lot of advice given without all the facts considered or even offered. first question should be parameters. But I see this far worse on fb page I admin on. someone says my torch looks like this. 20 people give 30 answers without a single person asking about water parameters or photo period length and intensity.

So that leads me into a question for you that my buddies and I have had many discussions about. You make valid points as to whats wrong, so if you love the hobby, how would you go about fixing some of these issues? What can we do besides complain about it to help our hobby? I understand that fighting the big businesses such as Ecotech or BRS would be a very large if not impossible task. I'm looking for more ideas of a grass roots type of movement.

I always really wonder, how many people actually ask for advice and follow through with one of the tips? I’m sure many do, but do most? I can’t say I’ve ever seen someone come back and say “that advice wrecked my tank!” Perhaps it would be out of embarrassment but I’ve always been curious.

 

[ScottR]

These forums have been instrumental in my endeavor into this hobby. As I said earlier, coming in blind makes it hard to learn as you don't know what you don't know.

While this forum may not be perfect for everyone, but it gave me the threads pull on and follow further and learn; then when I got to the end, the community was there to fill in the gaps and answer all of my questions.

Plus, where else can you get help in minutes when the crap hits the fan with your tank at 2am and you have an emergency?

My initial reason for joining this forum was because I was a geek for the hitchhiker section. I was always drawn to it and still am.

 

[Hemmdog]

I always really wonder, how many people actually ask for advice and follow through with one of the tips? I’m sure many do, but do most? I can’t say I’ve ever seen someone come back and say “that advice wrecked my tank!” Perhaps it would be out of embarrassment but I’ve always been curious.

Not so much bad feedback, but about once or twice a week I’ll get a DM saying my advice worked and their tank/coral is doing great again.
It’s really nice to get positive feedback, it makes all the hours we all spend helping each other even more worth it.

 

[sde1500]

The reefing hobby is in a bad position. Niche hobby that has gotten even more expensive. Black Friday sales were trash this year. Hobby keeps burning new people with bad info and marketing. Haven’t been on this site for a while and came back recently to trash. Forums are polluted with terrible takes and bad info only to be followed by bias info from homers of products who consider themselves “influencers”. Man, I feel bad for the new people that actually want to join this hobby and are misguided by the internet.

My question to you is, what have you done on here since coming back to be different than the problem you complain about. So to answer myself, I took a look into your post history. Quite negative all around.

The OP obviously was just listening to the advice of a bad LFS only and maybe a few uneducated reefers along the way. Basically, walked into a LFS bought a fish they thought was pretty but their set up wasn’t appropriate for that species and they did it multiple times which is the fact that surprises me. The OPs problems are their own lack of abilities to spend time researching info about the livestock they want to keep. A quick google search of any aquarium fish’s name will usually bring LA up as first link. There it will tell you, minimum tank recommendations, aggression, if you need a TIGHT FITTING lid, etc. Unless the OP decides to do research they will continue to have an ugly tank and kill fish/inverts. Having expensive equipment can’t stop an uneducated reefer from having an ugly tank.

Instead of being constructive on a thread discussing the challenges of the hobby, you make some wild assumptions about them in a very negative/insulting manner. Advocating for "quick google searches" which would in many cases bring up this forum. If that is the best you can offer, google searches, do you contribute at all to the content in the forum being better than "trash"?

I am but they’ve been redundant. I have spoken my peace. The OP is trying to blame the hobby for not educating new hobbiest upfront about what it takes to keep a reef tank and I think the hobby does a good job of that with BRS, LA, SA and then the youtube guys out there just to name a few outlets. I think the OP is wrong from that standpoint because they didn’t do research and listening to a LFS they think the hobby doesn’t educate new hobbiest. They are wrong

Youtube is rife with influencers. Once again doubling down on directing insults and assumptions at someone creating a discussion, and directing them away from, instead of to, this forum. So again, are you doing anything better for this forum?

@Charley Are you on some cooking forum too complaining that you bought the highest priced cookware and burned all your food? But, when you went to the grocery store no one told you cooking can be difficult and that grocery stores should start handing out “Beginners Guide to Cooking” DVDs.

Found this one to be ironic.

 

[stanleo]

This forum has helped me tremendously but only because I remember the golden rule of the internet. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't make it true. I read the advice and take a consensus of the posts and decide for myself what is best for my system and budget. I don't take anything for gospel and only trust a handful of people that post on here.

I agree that things are too expensive and I despise when I see someone say you need an aquarium controller or you HAVE to have an ATO, carbon/GFO reactor and every other gadget that isn't vital to a stable tank. But I like companies like BRS because of their videos. There are quite a few that state that you don't need all that for a successful reef. Sure they try to push their over priced gadgets but they almost always mention that you don't need the Geovit or that crazy thing with the roller mats. These are just ways to go. There is even a video on BRS that says having a canister filter instead of a sump for filtration is a perfectly acceptable way to go about reefing.

Right now I am planning to build a fish room in the basement for room to expand and a bigger sump, mixing station and other stuff because I think it will be fun to further explore this hobby, not because I think I need it. I have seen several posts that say a fish room with QT tanks and massive sumps are necessary for long term success, but I have seen just as many posts from the reefers I trust that say you don't need all that. I would be perfectly happy and so would my tank if I kept everything under the stand like it is now.

Just remember that one person's advise, no matter how much experience they have is not the answer. Read other posts, really read the build threads and ask a lot of questions throughout the process. Sometimes I think I get annoying with all my questions and threads but I am going to keep doing it because I still have a lot to learn.

 

[MERKEY]

This site is a great place for information!

Like with any source of information it will have flaws.

Our own personal part is to try to do as much research as we can and make a logical decision based on what we have researched.

The tricky part for new reefers is that there is SO much info by so many people with their own opinions rather than actual facts, so finding the right info can be daunting.

When used correctly this site has members that have done the research and documented their challenges and success.

Just a couple of examples......

Humblefish and his documentation and trial with QT and methods. This is so useful it hurts!!

Then OrionN and his documentation and success with PMD. Now he is moving his research to the elegance coral and could be making new ground there as well.

I'm sorry you feel it's broken, but let's fix it

 

[fish farmer]

Not to stir things up, but I completely disagree. I've been reefing for 20 years and it's one of the best times I've ever seen in the hobby. We have more choices than ever (at all price points), more freely available information and exchange of ideas, and technologies that were never previously imaginable!

Reefing can be done expensively or on a budget. (I've done both with equal success). It's no more expensive than many other hobbies (unless you want it to be). I was into model railroading for many years and it's the same thing. You can buy an $80 engine or an $8000 dollar engine. The choice is up to the hobbyist.

As for bad advice..... If you ask 10 people a question about anything you are bound to get 10 different answers. Some of those answers may be bad advice, but often it's just different ways of doing things. There is no "one" right way to reef. That is the value of a forum, people can ask advice and evaluate the answers they receive, along with their own research to find the solution that best fits their situation.

I don't always like the prices of equipment, but I am free to choose what I purchase or learn to DIY. These are businesses. They exist to make money. WE as consumers set the price by what we are willing to pay. It's no different than cars, cellphones, or clothing. There is no "reef equipment vendor conspiracy". They are just running businesses in a free market. They wouldn't exist if people weren't buying and happy with their purchases.

I don't understand calling R2R trash. Where else can you find hundreds of people willing to give their time to help others 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? I've been on other forums and there are NO other online communities that I have found that foster an open exchange of ideas (without the abuse and nonsense that takes place elsewhere) and free sharing of information. No community is perfect, but R2R is as close as I've found.

I'm sure I won't change your mind about any of your opinions, but I wanted to offer another viewpoint for those new to the hobby or contemplating entering it.

Well stated. I did a price comparison of my reef setup 20 years ago with what it would be today and it would be about the same but with MUCH better equipment. The corals would be more money, but they were mostly softies so they grow quick.

As for model railroading...ebay and kitbashing are a wonderful thing....

 

[GregOyeah]

Who comes into this hobby thinking it will be cheap? Ask someone who knows absolutely nothing about fish keeping, the common assumption is keeping saltwater tanks=$$$.

That aside, even as someone whos been in the hobby for a decade+, the equipment prices can be ridiculous, but 80% of this equipment are luxury items anyway. You dont HAVE to have them to be successful. Also, so much of this high dollar equipment, Ive gotten on this website you call trash, for as much as %50 off because Im buying used from another reefer. So I really dont understand how you can be upset at this website for being part of the problem. And even on top of that, theres even cheaper alternatives. There are so many more DIY options out there as alternatives to high end equipment, its not even funny, you just have to be willing to put in the time and effort for it.

If youre not willing to do that then you just dont love this hobby that much. We all kept saltwater reef tanks before there were $1500 controllers and $400 powerheads

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think it is worse now than say twenty years ago. There is just more of it now, and the internet proliferates it more and faster. But there is a log of good out there too. More so than ever. Just need to do your research, and verify with folks who have had long term success.

 

[User1]

It is a hobby. No one is forcing any of us to partake in it nor is anyone forcing us to buy any product, coral, or fish. There is no one way to run a freshwater or marine aquarium. I hate sounding cliche but the saying caveat emptor applies here.

We, the hobbyist, more often than not, are the buyer and therefore it is us alone who are responsible. Responsible, conscientious, researcher, homework, risk, eg. It can be a lot to take in and it may take a bit to get it right. But at the end of the day we and we alone are responsible.

 

[ScottB]

I am pretty new to online forums, so will say it did take me some time to figure out how to mine R2R effectively. For quite a while I just watched 100s of threads and 1000s of posts. A thousand on the dino thread alone.

Over that time, I developed enormous respect for probably 20-30 contributors on this forum, each providing valuable insights and links to other specialist contributors, calculators, tables, methods, equipment, the list goes on and on.

For someone new to reefing and forums it can be overwhelming with so many opinions flying around, but when building a consensus on how to proceed, you should weight the replies a bit heavier towards those that come from posters with large histories on R2R.

 

[stanleo]

It's the triangle of expectation. Cheap, fast, good. If you want cheap and good, it won't be fast. If you want fast and good, it won't be cheap. And if you want fast and cheap, it won't be good. You can't have all three. And that goes for ANYTHING in life.

 

[Hair Algae Wizard]

Respectfully disagree. I have found R2R and it's members to be very helpful.

Honestly, as someone who came back to the hobby after an 8 year absence, I would have been at a loss as to where to start again, and how to get my tank setup, without the help of this forum. I even managed to get a few Black Friday deals as well. Forums are what you make of it, and sometimes you have to weed through the bad, to find the good, but there is a ton of good here, and it far outweighs the bad!

My only gripe, don't ever mention the word Mindstream here, talk about a trigger word!

 

[Thales]

I agree that the Black Friday sales were not too impressive this year and the hobby has gotten expensive. The part I don’t agree with is the knowledge I have learned on this foruM. Started this hobby 2 yrs ago and thanks to this place I learned a lot of valuable info where I would not be in a good place right now..

That is great. Can you tell me about that? How did you navigate the sea of meh information and decide what you should listen too?

 

[DSC reef]

I truly think this forum helps more people than given credit for. Just like anywhere else there will be conflicting opinions but I think that's great as there is no one way to run a tank. I enjoy helping others where I can with experiences I've learned over the years.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Personal experience here;
This site has been the absolute best when it's come to problems with my tank. When I experienced my crash a couple months back, I had so many great users in my thread offering advice and possibilities of what could be the problem and we eventually figured it out together. I'm extremely thankful to them, and to R2R for giving me the platform to be able to do that.
A wise man once said "Ask 5 people a question about this hobby, and you'll get 6 different answers" It's up to you to choose which advice you go with.
But I agree with @Hemmdog and @ScottR I have never seen someone come back and say "Your advice crashed my tank!"
I'm sorry your experience here hasn't been up to your expectations

 

[WVNed]

There is excellent info here. It is buried in lots of noise. It seems that way everywhere on the internet anymore.

 

[Humblefish]

IMO; Things would improve if livestock wholesalers practiced better husbandry, and equipment MFGs would have better QC to limit shoddy products. Unfortunately, the aquarium industry is a tight-knit clique only interested in making money. Even the vendors that hate one another can agree on one thing: They don't want anything to change so long as the money train keeps rolling.

IF the livestock side ever gets regulated out of existence (which would effectively end the hobby as we know it)... They still won't care/understand what they did wrong. They will just move on to wrecking another live animal hobby with their short sightedness.

As far as R2R is concerned, it's an arm of the industry so I guess that means there will be good & bad.

Edit: Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with ANYONE making $$$ off this hobby. But there's a right and wrong way to conduct business. Especially when live animals lives are at stake. From my POV, that raises the bar when compared to selling a TV, microwave or some other inanimate object.

 

[John3]

Every hobby is also a business, if it wasn’t you would have almost zero choice and the hobby would not exist. Take a look around, every hobby costs more and more every year. It sucks but that’s how everything works, gotta pay to play.

I also think some old timers hate forums like this one because knowledge is freely handed out. Instead of people having to learn(earn in their eyes) from their mistakes/triumphs we can learn from others. The learning curve has significantly gone down and this ticks off many who feel like they had to earn this same knowledge.