Reef Hobby going down the drain

[Humblefish]

Humblefish

I chatted with Carl that guy is a real LA fish master. searching on him is a 48 hour rabbit hole

Yup, Carl is my "fish pharmacist".

He's done so much good for the hobby. I'm trying to get his name (and his work) out there more so he can be properly recognized.

 

[S2G]

Hard to swallow when someone comes into your neighborhood and calls it a dump!

I’ll try my best to look at this thread, listen and learn in an effort to make R2R an even better community.

One person's trash is anothers....

 

[Joe Rice]

Reef Hobby is Going Down the Drain: The reefing hobby is in a bad position. Niche hobby that has gotten even more expensive. Black Friday sales were trash this year. Hobby keeps burning new people with bad info and marketing. Haven’t been on this site for a while and came back recently to trash. Forums are polluted with terrible takes and bad info only to be followed by bias info from homers of products who consider themselves “influencers”. Man, I feel bad for the new people that actually want to join this hobby and are misguided by the internet.

I've only been in the hobby for 4 years. Were things really so much better in the past? They seem pretty dang good to me. I can buy a huge variety of $10 frags from three or four hobbyists within a 45 minute drive; I can get advise from real experts in the field (Randy Holmes-Farley, Thales, Brew12, Humblefish to name just a few) here on R2R, there's a local club full of helpful reefers, there's a huge range of equipment available and there's even a great podcast about the hobby.

 

[SliceGolfer]

The reefing hobby is in a bad position. Niche hobby that has gotten even more expensive. Black Friday sales were trash this year. Hobby keeps burning new people with bad info and marketing. Haven’t been on this site for a while and came back recently to trash. Forums are polluted with terrible takes and bad info only to be followed by bias info from homers of products who consider themselves “influencers”. Man, I feel bad for the new people that actually want to join this hobby and are misguided by the internet.

OK, Scrooge....

 

[flsalty]

A beginner would be wise to focus on actual articles written by reputable "experts". Kind of like way back when books were the way to learn. The forums are great for someone who already has a clue what they are doing, but I can't imagine being a true beginner and trying to get started here. Too much bad info, conflicting info, and inexperienced opinions.

Steering beginners towards the "Articles" section of the site might be a good way to go. If a beginner were to spend many hours there before ever looking at the forums they would probably be much better off.

Yes, I see this as probably the biggest weakness with forums like this. The weakness isn't with the forum, but how people use it. It seems like a lot of people go out and buy a tank, fish, corals, etc without doing any reading. Then they come on here and want instant answers, but they don't even know how to ask the questions. But the answers are all already here. This place is like the College of Reefing.

 

[MnFish1]

It seems the badges are partly an attempt to deal with that issue. Are they, and do they help?

My vote - they help - and they could be better - for example you're on the reef squad - and have a light blue badge thats hard to read depending on the mode one is using to view the page. Other members of the 'staff' have red tags - but the problem - so do reef club members - and secret Santa participants. It would be nice to have a color for this people 'on the reef squad or staff'. IMHO

 

[AZMSGT]

The reefing hobby is in a bad position. Niche hobby that has gotten even more expensive. Black Friday sales were trash this year. Hobby keeps burning new people with bad info and marketing. Haven’t been on this site for a while and came back recently to trash. Forums are polluted with terrible takes and bad info only to be followed by bias info from homers of products who consider themselves “influencers”. Man, I feel bad for the new people that actually want to join this hobby and are misguided by the internet.

Well, if you know so much, share, make it better. Help correct bad advice.
It’s easy to sit at home and criticize, but if you have no solution or are unwilling to help you’re just blowing smoke.

While some people might say the wrong thing at least they are trying.

I really haven’t seen people push one product or another. Most just talk about what they are familiar with and what works for them.

 

[old salt reefer]

Pushing products---I've been doing this since 1968. I have NO test kits to test for anything. I've NEVER owned a protein skimmer. The only way anything ever dies in my tank is from old age(seriously), or if the power goes out right after I left for work in the middle of winter.

 

[S2G]

The problem with this hobby is the same problem everywhere. Whiners and instant gratification easy button pushers.

Saltwater has always been expensive. The info available is a godsend and a lot of people take it for granted. You use to have to take your butt down to the library to get any info or take a guess. People want to be spoon fed a magic recipe for success instead of doing their homework.

The hobby can be as expensive or as budget friendly as you choose it to be. Did you get persuaded to buy a $600 skimmer with a cappuccino maker? Or an obviously altered photo of a pinky size frag? Or did you take out a loan for an uber expensive redsea setup with an IKEA stand? Well that's on you not the hobby.

I choose to participate but I could be very successful in reefing without posting a thread with the info available. Instead of complaining constantly be thankful for all the people that blazed the trail before you that made keeping these animals possible.

 

[14 foot reef]

personal responsibility rings clear here

 

[Thales]

I’ve come across many people outside the forums who have specifically stated to me what I posted. It’s the main reason they tell me why they don’t post(but they do lurk). It been said to me numerous times that reefing has been made so easy today by freely handed out info and nice equipment that all of the fun has been taken out of the hobby.

Funny thing is that my other hobby of fishing you get the same exact sentiment. It’s that old joke of walking uphill both ways to school, in the snow, barefoot...... The walk has just gotten too easy for some to bare.

That kind of thinking makes me sad.

 

[Thales]

+1 The faster newbies can get ahead of the "learning curve" the better for everyone involved.

I wish there were a more efficient, attractive way to do that.

 

[ca1ore]

A few ‘general’ observations:

1. Niche hobbies rarely have good Black Friday sales, mainly because they don’t have to. True for reefing, and for any of the other niche hobbies I patronize. If people are willing to pay premium $$ for quality gear, there really no incentive for sales.
2. Social media has been a boon to many hobbies like reefing, but it is ‘advice agnostic’. In other words, just as good at promoting bad advice and myths as good advice and solid principles. No different really than the LFS, just done at scale. I’m constantly amazed at what people will fall for, including in this hobby.
3. I usually think of the book publishing industry as an analogy to the cost/value of information. Reef books have mostly died off, presumably because folks don’t want to pay for something that can get online for free. Yet, there is a level of expertise required to write, edit and publish a book that conveys credibility. No such expertise or credibility is required to make a YouTube video or make a social media post. So, you get what you pay for. I also agree that many of the long-tenured, really capable reefers have backed away from social media pretty much for the reasonS we can all guess. I myself have considered it.

 

[Thales]

2. Social media has been a boon to many hobbies like reefing, but it is ‘advice agnostic’. In other words, just as good at promoting bad advice and myths as good advice and solid principles. No different really than the LFS, just done at scale. I’m constantly amazed at what people will fall for, including in this hobby.

Any ideas on how to deal with that? I am back to 'just keep slogging' but that seems so inefficient.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Forums are not perfect but they’ve been working for many many years!

 

[Eva Rose]

As for advice, you learn to follow those true experts that will tell you what is best for the health of your livestock. Those gifted in the field are knowledgeable but also direct and truthful. I look for those that tell me what I need to hear, not what I want to hear. Then if I want to increase my skills, I follow their advice. After 6 years I still feel so inexperienced. But it is the help of others that encourages me & builds my confidence.
If it were not for @Humblefish, I would not still be in the hobby. But I’m so grateful for his guidance & selfless efforts to educate us. The misinformation out there can be deflating. Instead search for those trying to educate hobbyist in good practices. That can be uplifting. There are great kind people in this hobby.
We have a lot of power in the hobby. Support vendors that are responsible & caring with livestock. I’ve passed on fish I really wanted, rather than buy from a vendor that is irresponsible. In the end, I wound up with my dream fish stocking list by a conscientious vendor.

Equipment - I learned that the best way is to ask experienced hobbyists. Here or @ a good local club.

So focus on support from the many gifted, caring experts available. I could make a long list. But to name a few:
@Humblefish - for educating us about fish diseases, QT & promoting ethical husbandry practices
@eatbreakfast - for excellent stocking advice & extensive insight into fish species behavior/interaction
@melypr1985 - great member support & valuable articles especially for beginners

 

[vetteguy53081]

While some points from the OP were valid, we must keep in mind. . . . . . .
Opposed to many hobbies out there, we are a Unique sector and a hobby which is Knowledge based and dependent upon factors such as the equipment necessary to maintain and sustain the purpose. Required is much more than special shoes, good golf irons, great tennis racket, skates or a quality helmet.
We get out of the hobby what we put into it. I agree 10% is measly in a manner of saying THANK YOU Once a year from Manufacturers but again, there are few alternatives for quality equipment. Most of us know when entering the hobby what costs we will be facing and that you get what you pay for.
We can complain day in and day out about costs, losses and discounts but at the end of the day, few of us do when admiring our creations.
I agree that prices have skyrocketed but inflation is nothing new to us and often overlooked until we are ready to make a purchase. A few months ago we had a poll on R2R whereas many expressed the high costs of equipment and the level of quality of equipment. We just found out this Black Friday how manufacturers responded. Disappointing it is, but this is the Hobby. We are unique as is the equipment and the only sad thing I can say is . . . . when looking at what we pay, and what equipment resells for on the used market- It is disappointing. So as I do, It is best to BUY THE BEST and BUY IT ONCE and hang on to it so you dont have to endure losses from upgrades or equipment failure.

 

[Katrina71]

Here's my .02. This hobby can be terribly expensive. We have 2 tanks and buy almost everything 2nd/3rd hand. It is the only way we could afford it. When gathering info, I think the hobbyist has to research things to get the big picture. This has been the absolute best place for us to read, ask, and learn.

 

[ca1ore]

Any ideas on how to deal with that? I am back to 'just keep slogging' but that seems so inefficient.

I wish I did. Beyond appropriate rules for conduct and civility, there’s really no way I can think of to convey credibility effectively online. Not uniquely a reef forum problem either. I’ve attempted to teach my teen sons to have a better BS meter as they interact online. If something seems off then it probably is. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. Just because somebody says something online doesn’t mean it’s true ..... trust, but verify.

 

[Hemmdog]

My vote - they help - and they could be better - for example you're on the reef squad - and have a light blue badge thats hard to read depending on the mode one is using to view the page. Other members of the 'staff' have red tags - but the problem - so do reef club members - and secret Santa participants. It would be nice to have a color for this people 'on the reef squad or staff'. IMHO

Valid point. I can’t read the blue badges well on dark mode.