Should sellers be responsible for FedEx delays?

[themcfreak]

This is an interesting thread. I like the civil debate. I can see both sides. As a buyer, if something went wrong, and I lost all of it, I would be very peeved. As a seller, if UPS/Fedex messed it up, and I lost all of it, I would be very peeved.

Honestly, I have to side with the people saying the buyer should look at terms, and if they don't like them, don't buy from them. In the OP, it asks why we (as buyers) have let sellers get to these ridiculous (1 hour DOA?) policies. The answer, I think, is that they got to that point because we let them. Supply and demand is real. If a seller has no demand, because buyers stop buying from them due to their ridiculous policy, then the seller either A) must figure out why people aren't buying and change policy or B) go out of business.

If the buyers were to 'make a stand' and force sellers to change, then the policies like that would go away. However, that didn't happen (doesn't happen still?) and so sellers can sell with these policies in place.

Obviously, these are generalizations, and there are good buyers and good sellers who aren't as extreme as my post implies, but I think it helps illuminate the situation and why things are the way they are.

 

[Tphill]

I see. So I as a buyer have found a vendor whose business model and practices I find to be to my liking. So if I don't buy from another vendor because their advertised practices are not to my liking, I'm now imposing a policy on them? Cool, I can live with that!

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

First off I don’t have much experience in this since I just received my first large sps order yesterday. I think if people are very civil something can be worked out. Maybe discus this before you give them the money. I bought a package from @addictreef (.Dominic) and he was amazing. I informed him that since I work in the er, I could be cslled in but would have my dad their. We opted for no signature to prevent problems. He verified my delivery date two days prior and if it was still okay. Plus since my Amex card is dumb, he allowed me extra time to find a different method to pay (It was same day still) but very very professional and easy to deal with, especially for my first time. I’m certain he would have worked with me to some extent if fedex was late etc. In all he was amazing to buy from, which leads me to this, it shouldn’t matter if it’s a hobbyist or business, people need to show just some empathy and concern. The seller needs to know some things are out of the buyers control, and vice versus. But if each person just shows empathy and respect then things should work out. In addition maybe have this discussion in a very calm civil manner before the money exchanges. Again, I don’t have much experience in this lol but my first time was amazing.

In dealing with my lfs they know me well enough to know that if there is a problem with something that I’m being 100% truthful. I have had fish die on the way home not even out of their bag yet. I simply turned around and went back and either they gave me the option of store credit or money back. I have always used store credit because I really want to support them. This doesn’t happen often where something does but if so I know they will help me.

 

[PDR]

I see. So I as a buyer have found a vendor whose business model and practices I find to be to my liking. So if I don't buy from another vendor because their advertised practices are not to my liking, I'm now imposing a policy on them? Cool, I can live with that!

No, not at all. Maybe I just misinterpreted your first post.

I hold all venders up to the standard set by Battlecorals.

I took that to mean that you "applied" Battlecorals policy to every vender you purchase from regardless of their actual policy.

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

First off I don’t have much experience in this since I just received my first large sps order yesterday. I think if people are very civil something can be worked out. Maybe discus this before you give them the money. I bought a package from @addictreef (.Dominic) and he was amazing. I informed him that since I work in the er, I could be cslled in but would have my dad their. We opted for no signature to prevent problems. He verified my delivery date two days prior and if it was still okay. Plus since my Amex card is dumb, he allowed me extra time to find a different method to pay (It was same day still) but very very professional and easy to deal with, especially for my first time. I’m certain he would have worked with me to some extent if fedex was late etc. In all he was amazing to buy from, which leads me to this, it shouldn’t matter if it’s a hobbyist or business, people need to show just some empathy and concern. The seller needs to know some things are out of the buyers control, and vice versus. But if each person just shows empathy and respect then things should work out. In addition maybe have this discussion in a very calm civil manner before the money exchanges. Again, I don’t have much experience in this lol but my first time was amazing.

In dealing with my lfs they know me well enough to know that if there is a problem with something that I’m being 100% truthful. I have had fish die on the way home not even out of their bag yet. I simply turned around and went back and either they gave me the option of store credit or money back. I have always used store credit because I really want to support them. This doesn’t happen often where something does

 

[Tphill]

No, not at all. Maybe I just misinterpreted your first post.
I took that to mean that you "applied" Battlecorals policy to every vender you purchase from regardless of their actual policy.

When I have purchased from other vendors, and maybe something went wrong, I do not and would not say 'x vendor's policy is this'. However, I do rate the transaction based on many things including my best transaction experiences, and then decide whether or not to do business with that vendor again. Now, I just find it best to stick with proven.

 

[PDR]

Yep I just misunderstood you. My bad.

 

[ontop27]

My view on 1 hr doa. I have never sold anything on here. I do buy and get it shipped to my work. From delivery to acclimation it takes about 8 hours. That delay should not be on the seller.

 

[Tphill]

It's good. We got alot of our opinion out there.

Btw, I work as a shipping supervisor, so I see how packages are handled, both incoming and outgoing.

 

[Tphill]

My view on 1 hr doa. I have never sold anything on here. I do buy and get it shipped to my work. From delivery to acclimation it takes about 8 hours. That delay should not be on the seller.

And shipping delays should never be on the buyer.

 

[Reef of Fillory]

IMO a seller's responsibility is to deliver a product in the same condition it was shipped. If the product [fish, coral, invert etc.] doesn't arrive healthy and alive, or doesn't make the trip [regardless of delays] then the seller did not fulfill his/her responsibility to the buyer, and should refund the purchase price less shipping.

As suggested by others so far on this thread, I will not purchase any live goods from a source that does not back up their product after arrival. In the case of mishandling, or not receiving the package at the scheduled time [ex. leaving the box on the porch or counter for 4 hours before acclimating] the buyer is at fault if that additional time can reasonably be expected to have made the live/dead difference. Acclimation is another story, as is tank parameters and if there is an issue and dispute over a delivery and the personal handling of the product, it is more than reasonable to expect some sort of confirmation to the seller that it was not the buyer's doing.

 

[Joe's Coral Reef]

This sucks for both sides. Larger vendors I would expect them to cover it, because they are doing a larger volume and should expect some losses. The smaller guys its harder, the shipping on one order may kill any profit on 2-3 orders. I sell allot of frogspawn mainly local, but I had someone who lived 3 hours away ask me to ship it. We paid $40 to ship it overnight, somehow it took 3 days to get delivered. We didn't have bad weather, nothing, the package hit one of the hubs and just sat. Needless to say, everything was dead. my stuff is priced so low and I sell so little this would have just killed me, between the cost of the coral and shipping, luckily the buyer was very nice and agreed to cover most of it.

I think part of this should fall on UPS and fedex, they sell a product that doesn't exactly live up to what your paying for. If I pay for next day and it takes 3 days for delivery, I should at least be refunded the difference. You cant tell me they have no idea when you go to ship something that it wont be delayed.

 

[mattgsa]

I remember a class in micro economics. The teacher was talking about doing business with companies, and he made it clear. Your best tool when it comes to dealing with companies is your feet. Don't agree with them or don't like their policy then walk away. We do it all the time. Just think about the last time you had bad service or food at a restaurant. Did you go back? Did you get a refund? Now we have the internet, and forms like this one where anyone can complain as much as they like, or leave reviews justified or not. It doesn't take much effort on the buyers’ part to determine if the company is worth your time and money.
Just the other day i got an advertisement from a company that stated they could lower my property taxes. It sounded great, my taxes are sky high, but they wanted nearly 300 dollars. So I looked them up online(Google), and they had terrible reviews. I through the paper in the trash. I would assume the same is true here. If the vendor is unreasonable or unable to deliver good products, I'm sure it will be posted. Just requires some homework on the part the buyer. I would never just assume a vendor is good, and hand over my money. Especially in this hobby.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

This is an interesting thread. I like the civil debate. I can see both sides. As a buyer, if something went wrong, and I lost all of it, I would be very peeved. As a seller, if UPS/Fedex messed it up, and I lost all of it, I would be very peeved.

Honestly, I have to side with the people saying the buyer should look at terms, and if they don't like them, don't buy from them. In the OP, it asks why we (as buyers) have let sellers get to these ridiculous (1 hour DOA?) policies. The answer, I think, is that they got to that point because we let them. Supply and demand is real. If a seller has no demand, because buyers stop buying from them due to their ridiculous policy, then the seller either A) must figure out why people aren't buying and change policy or B) go out of business.

If the buyers were to 'make a stand' and force sellers to change, then the policies like that would go away. However, that didn't happen (doesn't happen still?) and so sellers can sell with these policies in place.

Obviously, these are generalizations, and there are good buyers and good sellers who aren't as extreme as my post implies, but I think it helps illuminate the situation and why things are the way they are.

Hopefully this thread can spread awareness and get more people onboard. We as buyers have a choice. As the thread developed we already got to know some good business with reasonable and fair policies.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

I remember a class in micro economics. The teacher was talking about doing business with companies, and he made it clear. Your best tool when it comes to dealing with companies is your feet. Don't agree with them or don't like their policy then walk away. We do it all the time. Just think about the last time you had bad service or food at a restaurant. Did you go back? Did you get a refund? Now we have the internet, and forms like this one where anyone can complain as much as they like, or leave reviews justified or not. It doesn't take much effort on the buyers’ part to determine if the company is worth your time and money.
Just the other day i got an advertisement from a company that stated they could lower my property taxes. It sounded great, my taxes are sky high, but they wanted nearly 300 dollars. So I looked them up online(Google), and they had terrible reviews. I through the paper in the trash. I would assume the same is true here. If the vendor is unreasonable or unable to deliver good products, I'm sure it will be posted. Just requires some homework on the part the buyer. I would never just assume a vendor is good, and hand over my money. Especially in this hobby.

I would imagine a negative review of the seller not covering any loss caused by a delay on this forum would be pretty bad to the sellers reputation

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

I try to understand the logic behind the people/companies that have the “not responsible for FedEx delay” and “1 hour DOA, in the bag” rules. Wouldn’t such words push some of your customers away? I myself and some others don’t buy from sellers with such policies. Overall even if I don’t worry about delays because the chances are small, but I’m still irritated by such intimidating policies. Some sellers shipping policies are exhaustively long. It’s like reading a detective’s guidebook and framing the customer as the one cheating.

 

[Greybeard]

Simple. I'm buying a live animal. I'm not responsible for shipping the item, the vendor is. If it doesn't get to me in good condition, I'm not paying for it. Don't really care who's fault it is. If the vendor's policy doesn't guarantee live delivery, I'll shop elsewhere.

I will note that I very seldom purchase anything alive online. A few weeks back, I made a day trip to TLReefs. Why? No shipping. If I want something my LFS doesn't have in stock, I have them order it for me. If it doesn't arrive alive, I'm not buying it. Don't really know, or care, what sort of deal the LFS has with their vendor... and I am fully aware that losses get passed on to the customer eventually. That's fine. I expect to pay higher prices at the LFS than I would online. It's worth it.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

Don’t forget to vote in the poll guys!

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I have been selling online and shipping via Fed Ex and UPS for 20 years, both as a hobbyist in the past and now as a vendor. Here are my experiences. First, shipping is expensive. Even with a hefty discount for shipping a lot, it's still very expensive and we lose money on every order shipped even though we do charge a small amount for shipping. Shipping without a discount, at published rates, is astronomical, and rates automatically increase annually by UPS and FedEx.

In my experience UPS is better than FedEx in several respects. Their ground and overnight services are integrated thus allowing them to guarantee overnight ground delivery within a certain geographical zone, for us thats quite large and allows us to offer cheaper shipping in many areas. We experience far fewer issues with UPS compared to FedEx, probably in part due to the integration of both levels of service and more options if problems arise. We always check weather conditions along the route of every shipment and suggest changes when needed and most folks are good about being flexible. The huge difference is that UPS does in fact offer insurance at 3 levels. 1. Guarantee if lost or improperly handled, 2. Guarantee if delayed by weather, 3. If your order is over $1000 we also use an excess value insurance and those orders are given extra priority through their system. These 3 insurances are beyond their normal business, do cover live animals, and we absorb the cost of those, totaling about $8-$12 per order based on invoice value and must be used by us on every order we ship--in other words we can't pick and chose, it makes sense just like every driver pays insurance every day and thats how the insurance company makes money calculating the odds of payouts for claims and setting rates accordingly. Also, we never try pushing shipping near holidays, especially Christmas and post Black Friday even though we may have insurance, during very high volume periods things will be delayed and no sense killing animals needlessly.

As far as live arrival guarantees, I think that should be a shared responsibility. If something arrives dead or in bad shape we require a pic within 3 hours. If we are notified within that period you have 3 days to notify us if something that didnt look good upon arrival does die. I think that is fair to both sides. Unfortunately there are folks that will leave animals in bags for hours or even until the next day and expect they should be OK. 99.999% of folks are great to deal with and we are flexible with them if problems arise, it's the tiny fraction of scammers that require us to have formal policies.

 

[DeepWaterAddict]

I have been selling online and shipping via Fed Ex and UPS for 20 years, both as a hobbyist in the past and now as a vendor. Here are my experiences. First, shipping is expensive. Even with a hefty discount for shipping a lot, it's still very expensive and we lose money on every order shipped even though we do charge a small amount for shipping. Shipping without a discount, at published rates, is astronomical, and rates automatically increase annually by UPS and FedEx.

In my experience UPS is better than FedEx in several respects. Their ground and overnight services are integrated thus allowing them to guarantee overnight ground delivery within a certain geographical zone, for us thats quite large and allows us to offer cheaper shipping in many areas. We experience far fewer issues with UPS compared to FedEx, probably in part due to the integration of both levels of service and more options if problems arise. We always check weather conditions along the route of every shipment and suggest changes when needed and most folks are good about being flexible. The huge difference is that UPS does in fact offer insurance at 3 levels. 1. Guarantee if lost or improperly handled, 2. Guarantee if delayed by weather, 3. If your order is over $1000 we also use an excess value insurance and those orders are given extra priority through their system. These 3 insurances are beyond their normal business, do cover live animals, and we absorb the cost of those, totaling about $8-$12 per order based on invoice value and must be used by us on every order we ship--in other words we can't pick and chose, it makes sense just like every driver pays insurance every day and thats how the insurance company makes money calculating the odds of payouts for claims and setting rates accordingly. Also, we never try pushing shipping near holidays, especially Christmas and post Black Friday even though we may have insurance, during very high volume periods things will be delayed and no sense killing animals needlessly.

As far as live arrival guarantees, I think that should be a shared responsibility. If something arrives dead or in bad shape we require a pic within 3 hours. If we are notified within that period you have 3 days to notify us if something that didnt look good upon arrival does die. I think that is fair to both sides. Unfortunately there are folks that will leave animals in bags for hours or even until the next day and expect they should be OK. 99.999% of folks are great to deal with and we are flexible with them if problems arise, it's the tiny fraction of scammers that require us to have formal policies.

It’s very nice of you to put insurance in them! That makes the whole process a lot easier. Thank you very much for your input!