This could end very badly for our hobby ...

[Flippers4pups]

If you're Vader, I might as well be Emperor Palpatine!

Yes, my master!

 

[Flippers4pups]

Yea because the oil spill in Louisiana or new man made island that Chinia made or the overall acidification of the ocean due falls short in comparison to what our hobby does.....Don't even. I know it has an impact but to try and pin the blame on us is just naive

Acidification of the oceans have done more damage to the reef ecosystems than any collection of marine life. They are not even in the same universe.

The breeding and aquaculture efforts in marine ornament fish and corals over the past two decades have had a huge impact, not only in the hobby, but in the stewardship of the worlds reefs.

It takes a lot of effort and research for these so called "documentary" film makers to include the truth. Of course that would defeat the reason for making their film in the first place.

 

[Flippers4pups]

I could do this all night!

 

[Elementalj]

Acidification of the oceans have done more damage to the reef ecosystems than any collection of marine life. They are not even in the same universe.

The breeding and aquaculture efforts in marine ornament fish and corals over the past two decades have had a huge impact, not only in the hobby, but in the stewardship of the worlds reefs.

It takes a lot of effort and research for these so called "documentary" film makers to include the truth. Of course that would defeat the reason for making their film in the first place.

Yes!

And again I say, have you seen they Keys? Lots of gorgonians, lots of algae, smattering of brains here and there, rubble.

The previous post about the deeper reefs are correct, as they don't feel the temperature swing and acidity like the shallows which are what we mainly try to replicate in our systems at home.

Plastic toys? Seriously?

Acidification is the main issue affecting the reef systems throughout the world. The reef fishes are dying because of disease, that would normally be kept in check by a balance within the reef system. Their collection, or overcollection at this point is merely the icing.

If my hobby is part of a greater destruction then I might as well BE the emperor. My love is for the sea, and everything in it. Not being able to afford college kept me from the official science of it, so this is as close as I can get to case study.

I plan on propagation, and to donate to the organizations that replace what we have taken. He can't say the same.

 

[LoneStarReef]

The aquarium industry has some issues when it comes to wild collection, that's a fact. Sadly, the industry has been less than proactive in dealing with the problems surrounding species coming from under-regulated or un-regulated locales. Cyanide fishing still takes place, more than most hobbyists realize. However, Bob Witner is not the ambassador needed to bring about change. He wants one thing, the end of marine aquariums and wild-livestock collection. He discounts the role livestock collection plays in vitalizing villages that previously caught food-fish off their reefs. Winter is known to exaggerate facts, paint the portrait he wants to be seen and quite frankly he is a rude person. I've locked horns with him several times over the years. Winter and Umberger (the two voices behind this film) believe that captivity for all animals is wrong and they want an end to the marine aquarium trade. In many ways, Hawaii is a model for livestock fisheries. Blackfish damaged the reputation of Seaworld while discounting the good Seaworld does to protect wild killer whales and the fact that without parks like Seaworld, we would be way behind in our knowledge of marine mammals. Today, anyone can start a go fund me, Kickstarter or Indiegogo and if they raise enough capital, make a documentary film. Without doubt, Witner will use the power of emotion and suggestion to attempt to start a public outcry against marine aquaria. Hopefully he will fail. He is doing a great disservice to aquarists and the environment, by failing to bring about realistic, honest change by ignoring some facts, exaggerating others and creating his own narrative.

Agreed! The ironic thing is that he is posing with a dog in his profile pic. So much for ending captivity for all animals....

 

[Elementalj]

Agreed! The ironic thing is that he is posing with a dog in his profile pic. So much for ending captivity for all animals....

What's he feeding the dog?!?!? Have you seen chicken farms? I mean REALLY

 

[300bowler]

The one thing that I hate about these kinds of things is that the person behind them has probably never spoke to a person who owns a saltwater aquarium. Because if they had they would know that we care more about the reefs and animals who in habit them more than anyone else. That is why we are in the hobby in the first place.

So blaming these kinds of things on us is like blaming our ancestors for taking wild wolves out of their environment and domesticating them into our common everyday dogs, that over 35% of households in the U.S. have.

End of Rant...

 

[TylerS]

I would consider taking down the link to that website. No need to inadvertently promote that junk. I was just looking for a "sustainable reefing" forum on this website the other day. It seems like there isn't one?

 

[Untamedrose]

From film description " The trade depends on wildlife, including Hawaii’s, to drive lucrative hardware sales—tanks, stands, lights, filters, pumps and little plastic treasure chests with skeletons." So how many saltwater folks have plastic treasure chests and skeletons? That sounds more like a kid's goldfish tank. Do they really know anything about the hobby? Or is it just a hatchet job?

Their commerical plug expert refers to fish as "red fish, small blue fish, green fish, and the yellow fish ..where have all the yellow fish gone!" (seriously paraphased but I didnt wanna watch it again to get the exact) Come on....at 7 I could have told you a the "yellow fish" was a yellow tang and I didnt grow up besides any ocean let alone in HI.
Course it's a hatchet job.

 

[Mpal771]

Acidification of the oceans have done more damage to the reef ecosystems than any collection of marine life. They are not even in the same universe.

The breeding and aquaculture efforts in marine ornament fish and corals over the past two decades have had a huge impact, not only in the hobby, but in the stewardship of the worlds reefs.

It takes a lot of effort and research for these so called "documentary" film makers to include the truth. Of course that would defeat the reason for making their film in the first place.

The Marine Breeding Initiative is one of many such endeavors. Many are science based and all benefit the hobby. There are few current day documentaries about anything that don't have a political slant. The key here is recognizing the pendulum swing as hobbyist. This past legislative session, the hobby narrowly escaped federal import bans that would have required a special license to keep everything from cardinal fish to triggerfish.

This legislation was far to broad and restrictive and was met by a good opposing lobbyists. The lobbyists included manufacturers of the equipment used in our hobby. The documentary posted is flawed (footage of fish not native to Hawaiian Islands) but it is foolish to dismiss it entirely. The many societies that make up our hobby are people that care about the sustainability of our reefs and eco-system. Its fair to say that we cherish it to an extent of spending thousands of dollars and countless hours in the pursuit of duplicating it.

The hobby should speak as one voice. Develop a sustainability plan and pursue it. Develop, adapt and herald practices that demonstrate our belief in sustainability .Just off the top of my head-

1.) Coral propagation, aquaculture coral sales, coral morphs, special edition corals. Continue the importance of this practice throughout the hobby. Highlight how this practice has reduced the demand and price for corals and increased awareness and knowledge of what corals need to thrive.

2.) The hobby has created a universally better understanding of the importance of water quality and what affects it. Much of what we know today is not because we paid attention in science class. Each of us has a far greater understanding of how delicate our eco-system is. That is why we all cringed when we watched the video.

3.) There are some things that our hobby just wont tolerate...Some practices that are socially unacceptable. For instance-overstocking a tank or putting a tang in a 10 gallon tank. we all bristle at the stories and readily call people out in our many forums. It didn't take a law to create this norm. The hobby needs to recognize that cyanide caught fish are unacceptable. Any method that causes damage to the reefs or eco-systems is unacceptable and indefensible. It starts with the exporters. Our importers must be forced to reject buying fish by the wholesalers who buy them. This can only be done buy the retailers that buy them. This can only be done by the hobbyists who buy them. There are conflict free diamonds and dolphin safe tuna. No one really wants to wear a fur coat anymore. "Sustainably caught" fish should be the first term on any website and readily visible at LFS. This issue is the "Alamo" for our hobby and should be worn as a such.

4.) Establish a "Hobby Lobby" of our own that supports programs like the Marine Breeding Initiative. If every hobbyist had to donate 1% of every hobby purchase-imagine. Just the government funding to further the pursuit would be incredible and everybody wins.

Disclaimer: I am also a scuba diver and have seen the changes from the Caymans to Cozumel. I am also in government. I am old enough to recognize a political pendulum swing. Our hobby has a strong virtuous position in this issue. We have to outline and herald it.

Disclaimer #2: I am also old enough to recognize that "Bob The Snorkeler" is so dim that he doesn't understand why his own state gives out more licenses than it has residents...and he's a short drive from his own legislative body...and that he's politically motivated to an extent of publishing mis-information. I also recognize he's smart enough to know that outrage affects change.

 

[Elementalj]

The Marine Breeding Initiative is one of many such endeavors. Many are science based and all benefit the hobby. There are few current day documentaries about anything that don't have a political slant. The key here is recognizing the pendulum swing as hobbyist. This past legislative session, the hobby narrowly escaped federal import bans that would have required a special license to keep everything from cardinal fish to triggerfish.

This legislation was far to broad and restrictive and was met by a good opposing lobbyists. The lobbyists included manufacturers of the equipment used in our hobby. The documentary posted is flawed (footage of fish not native to Hawaiian Islands) but it is foolish to dismiss it entirely. The many societies that make up our hobby are people that care about the sustainability of our reefs and eco-system. Its fair to say that we cherish it to an extent of spending thousands of dollars and countless hours in the pursuit of duplicating it.

The hobby should speak as one voice. Develop a sustainability plan and pursue it. Develop, adapt and herald practices that demonstrate our belief in sustainability .Just off the top of my head-

1.) Coral propagation, aquaculture coral sales, coral morphs, special edition corals. Continue the importance of this practice throughout the hobby. Highlight how this practice has reduced the demand and price for corals and increased awareness and knowledge of what corals need to thrive.

2.) The hobby has created a universally better understanding of the importance of water quality and what affects it. Much of what we know today is not because we paid attention in science class. Each of us has a far greater understanding of how delicate our eco-system is. That is why we all cringed when we watched the video.

3.) There are some things that our hobby just wont tolerate...Some practices that are socially unacceptable. For instance-overstocking a tank or putting a tang in a 10 gallon tank. we all bristle at the stories and readily call people out in our many forums. It didn't take a law to create this norm. The hobby needs to recognize that cyanide caught fish are unacceptable. Any method that causes damage to the reefs or eco-systems is unacceptable and indefensible. It starts with the exporters. Our importers must be forced to reject buying fish by the wholesalers who buy them. This can only be done buy the retailers that buy them. This can only be done by the hobbyists who buy them. There are conflict free diamonds and dolphin safe tuna. No one really wants to wear a fur coat anymore. "Sustainably caught" fish should be the first term on any website and readily visible at LFS. This issue is the "Alamo" for our hobby and should be worn as a such.

4.) Establish a "Hobby Lobby" of our own that supports programs like the Marine Breeding Initiative. If every hobbyist had to donate 1% of every hobby purchase-imagine. Just the government funding to further the pursuit would be incredible and everybody wins.

Disclaimer: I am also a scuba diver and have seen the changes from the Caymans to Cozumel. I am also in government. I am old enough to recognize a political pendulum swing. Our hobby has a strong virtuous position in this issue. We have to outline and herald it.

Disclaimer #2: I am also old enough to recognize that "Bob The Snorkeler" is so dim that he doesn't understand why his own state gives out more licenses than it has residents...and he's a short drive from his own legislative body...and that he's politically motivated to an extent of publishing mis-information. I also recognize he's smart enough to know that outrage affects change.

Precisely. Thank you for your contribution.

 

[Ike]

Where do these people get their Statistics from!

"99% dead within a year"?

Fear mongering to make a buck is what this is about! Nothing less, nothing more.

Fish survival rates have probably gotten much better over the year with better collection techniques, better holding facilities, better logistics and better husbandry due to advances in equipment and the hobby as a whole. Hopefully I'm wrong, but based on 30 very active years in the hobby and some years in the industry I would speculate that the survival rate beyond a year is WELL below 50% and probably closer to that 99% number than 50%. There is a dark side to this hobby, and we as aquarists should all be conscious of this and try to make things better so people like Snorkel Bob don't have additional ammunition. Some simple things can have a positive impact on that survival rate.

1.) Refuse to buy fish that have known low survival rates in captivity, and speak up to local fish stores and fellow aquarists that regularly buy these fish. The collectors WILL stop collecting them if they don't sell.

2.) Educate yourself on a fishes needs BEFORE you purchase it. Making sure parameters tank size and the animals being housed together are all compatible. This includes selecting tank mates carefully and planning how you will stock your tank in order to lower the possibility of death from aggression and the stress related to it.

3.) Educate your fellow hobbyists and local stores and not turning a blind eye when you see them doing something that could lead to an untimely demise in a fish.

4.) Buy captive bred fish when possible, there are a lot of great options out there.

5.) Buy the proper equipment to maintain a healthy tank and put safeguards in place to prevent tank crashes due to weather or vacation.

Those are the main ones that come to mind, but even something like refusing Centropyge angelfish will have an impact since the survival rates are probably a little lower when compared to many other species. Collectors are also probably more most destructive to the reef when it comes to capture since they like to wedge themselves in coral heads where divers will often destroy the coral to get to a prized fish. They're also probably caught with cyanide more often than most species. The darn things will eventually nip your favorite corals anyways and you'll wish them dead

I love this hobby, and the longer we just keep the status quo, the better the chance that someone like Snorkel Bob can get lawmakers to essentially take our hobby away.

Ike

<steps off his soapbox>

 

[Benders Bay]

I think if people are blind to the one sided subjectivness of documentaries, why aren't marine aquarists creating their own rendition? Why are we subject to arguing without being heard? Articles are one thing. Getting someone to read it is another.

Organization. The independent collectors ( Reef Rapers) are the target here They have no organized way to defend themselves We aquarists are just the ignorant fools who keep and kill these animals for our own entertainment. I wonder how many of Snorkel Bob's clients are marine biologists. Not many I assume they are just more ignorant fools looking to be entertained and maybe some of them were inspired to set up a tank after their experience

 

[eatbreakfast]

Just so everyone is aware, focusing on only captive raised fish is not some panacea for the reefs. In many places, the fishing techniques are not detrimental to the reefs. If we stop supporting the local fish collectors, especially in countries with at risk reefs, that fisherman is still there, and if he can't support his family as an ornamental fish collector, his next career choice, probably commercial food fishing, is far more destructive to the reefs. Supporting responsiby caught wild fish is the best way we can help provide value to these reefs, and if they are valuable to those at the forefront these reefs will fare better.

Not keeping difficult fish is also not a great solution. There are many fish that used to be viewed as impossible years ago, but their secrets have since been 'unlocked' due to dedicated aquarists.

 

[Sharvey103]

When I was in Maui last year the locals complained about him and not all agreed with him. His style is obnoxious agreesive with divers and licensed collectors.

 

[JLynn]

I'm not worried about this documentary, personally. If you look at the kickstarter, it is doing extremely poorly. And it doesn't have any significant media profile.

I mean, that could change, but for now, I don't think it's a big concern.

 

[4FordFamily]

Did snorkel bob have a tank crash or dino takeover or something?

 

[gig 'em]

I kind of had to chuckle to myself during the video, sure a lot of it is true and the collection of reef fish can go overboard and there is a lot of death from amateur hobbyists on the import side of the industry, but this is a very biased video that simply has a lot of holes in it. At 3:48 the woman in the video said "you can take every living animal off the coral reef in Hawaii." Well that simply is not true. It is illegal to remove any live rock or corals from the reefs of Hawaii, and I would argue that the rock and corals make up a majority of the reef. If anything Hawaii should be the benchmark on sustainable aquarium collection because it's mostly all done legally, without chemicals or dynamite, and done so in a way that protects the fisheries from collapsing. Take a look at Indonesian fish collection and make a documentary if you really want a shock and awe campaign...

 

[ozadars]

I think hobbyists should stop blaming snorkelling, commercial fishing or global warming. This is our hobby and we need to turn it sustainable. Both socially and environmentally because our hobby is also causing a lot of damage to the coastal communities who live below poverty and they are prisoned in the marine aquarium industry with low income because they don't have any other choice.
Comparing to how much money and time we put in our hobby, marine aquarists showed very very little conservation efforts to improve the environmental and social issues related to this hobby. From the outside it looks like rich men's hobby who just consume labour and exotic animals and not give anything back. So, we shouldn't be surprised of these kinds of movies and campaigns. There will be more soon!

Yes, the hobby adds knowledge but it is not enough at all. We can turn this hobby 100% socially and environmentally sustainable. We should stop trying to find who has bigger negative impact over the reefs. Instead, with every purchase we make, we should make sure we contribute to the well-being of the reefs and the local communities. The problem is very real; the reefs are dying and the local coastal communities are suffering. If we are not going to help them, who else will? Global warming, pollution, overfishing... these are global problems and much more difficult to address. But we can make a change within us, which can be a example for others.

I share all reef conservation projects related to aquarium industry through a Facebook page; FairReef. Feel free to follow and send me any projects you come across.

 

[jeremy.gosnell]

I agree that an inappropriate response from both the aquarium industry and hobby is to point finger and say - "See they are doing more damage." It's akin to being a part of a school yard mob beating someone up and saying, "I only punched him twice, they punched him way more." Whether or not The Dark Hobby will have it's intended effect (which I imagine is to build public pressure and force legislators to shut down livestock collection in Hawaii) is difficult to say. What I fear it may do to the hobby on a wider scale, is generate interest from other media outlets, etc - to pursue stories surrounding the aquarium livestock collection industry, supply chain, etc. I am not worried about this because I am afraid people will lie and make up stories, but because if any investigative media/film production outlet opened the lid, they would find plenty of disturbing material.

Issues with our hobby/industry exist largely because the livestock collection industry has failed to unify and implement a collective effort to self-police. The MAC was a wash and borderline scam, yet nothing has arisen to take its place honestly and transparently. Essentially you have a livestock industry importing fish from proven unregulated fisheries where cyanide use is still widespread, accepting a living animal into our countries' commerce without knowing the details about how it was collected, where it was collected from, etc, etc. You also have a supply chain that is entirely unregulated that has no measurable standard of care and quality of life for animals that enter the aquarium pipeline.

What you get is an industry with chips falling where they may. Take Indonesia for example. Indonesia is a CITES monitored country, meaning that CITES studies Indonesian reefs and institutes catch quotas. They determine what fish/coral species can be taken from Indonesian waters, have outlawed cyanide collection and require all collected fish to be purchased by a marine fish exporter who is subject to various CITES inspections. Some exporters purchase fish from collectors they are certain (or fairly certain) are using net-capture and avoiding cyanide. They implement the best livestock holding facilities they can and the best shipping procedures.

Then there are exporters that buy fish from whomever will sell them the cheapest. They don't care how they were collected and don't want to know. Often these fish have sat in vats on small boats for more than a day while the fishers collected more and more species. Some are dead or near dead, before the boat gets back to the dock. I've seen images of these export stations where hollowed out wooden containers lined with plastic hold fish, and the only filtration is a small air-stone. Focusing on Indonesia, there is also the mortality rate of collected fish and maricultured fish. I was shocked to learn that there is a roughly 50% mortality rate in maricultured hippo tangs. Half of them die while being pulled from the ocean-based net enclosures, measured and prepared for shipping. The Indonesian government nor CITES has the resources to monitor for cyanide fishing and it's still ambiquitous in the islands.

Most industries would be pro-active in cleaning up this mess. The industry should unite and first develop a reliable cyanide test kit that is freely distributed to all marine fish exporters and importers, that doesn't require fish to be killed to be used. Something that is fast, accurate and easy to use. Trained industry personnel should be traveling at random, unannounced intervals to ensure exporters are using the cyanide test kits and not purchasing cyanide collected fish. This should take place on both the export and import side of things. Systems should be put into place to make the livestock industry a pro-active part of fishery reform. None of that has happened, at least not on a large enough scale to make a difference.

When it comes to lying, what really upsets me is that Snorkel Bob and others make aquarists out to be people who care little about the environment and only about decorating their homes with exotic fish. I've been in this hobby since I was a kid, and written for several large publications, traveled and working with aquarists all over the place, including in public aquaria. I know that is not true and the vast majority of aquarists are very interested in ocean conservation and care deeply for the animals they keep. Like any human being, we aquarists do make mistakes, but most of us are always working to improve our systems. I've worked with aquarists who were heart-broken because they had a tank disaster and quite frankly I think there are many that care more about fish than Snorkel Bob does. Snorkel Bob (and likely this film) misrepresent the marine aquarium community, its people, their motives and are trying to make us a public enemy just like they did with Seaworld and other marine parks. There are bad apples in every hobby/industry but overall I think the marine aquarium folks are pretty solid and have their hearts in the right place.