Trident vs Alkatronic vs KH Director vs kh guardian

[road_runner]

Curious - is that recommended/approved by the company - i.e. is there a reason (for the functioning of the unit that 240 minutes is the minimum?)

This whole number of tests thing "I think" comes from fear of salt creep...I think the khg is build smart in a sense that it doesnot depend on the accuracy of the pumps to calculate the kh. It has an IR sensor that count the drops and the speed of the drop of the reagent so as long ad the reagent tubing is not blocked the tight calculation of the kh will be reached cause it's a function of the uner of drops and ph value coming from the independent ph prob.
The errors in khg can occure if the ph prob us giving wrong ph values more than if the tube has salt creep or not.
Also the khg have this algorithm that flush the tubings with water couppe of times depend on how user set it.
I have ran my khg for 6 months where I hook it up to an outlet and control when outlet is on or off to force 2 tests a day only, no inaccuracies were observed on my end.
The vendor recomend a test every 240 minuts which I am sure for the same reasons as other, I just feel with khg design approach ita more robust to it..
Another point I like about khg is its modular design. The device consist of couppenof major parts: ph prob, mixing station that have drop counter, mixer and float. And dosers heads..
Any issue can be debugged by targeting the suspect part which you can change at home in few minutes. I am a hardware designer and have certain appreciation to designs that account for maintenance that are simple and can be done by the user..you either build something that never need a change as an example when iphone went to battries you cannot remove, or you do it so it's easily maintained or changed like having easy access to change battries as in other phones on the same level example this was one of such..
Personal opinion btw..

 

[User1]

Wow the Vitriol towards Apex is just stunning.

This thread and another it is pretty real. Bias is strong. Just goes to show as a society that we are not ready for many discussions these days regardless of the topic.

I am not a fan-boy of apex and really of no products or companies

More to my point above it is sad when you have to open a sentence with this line.

 

[road_runner]

This thread and another it is pretty real. Bias is strong. Just goes to show as a society that we are not ready for many discussions these days regardless of the topic.



More to my point above it is sad when you have to open a sentence with this line.

not sure the word biased is fair unless customer is a competitor. Every customer feedback should be valuable regardless. Ita a matter of, can you address or. Or not...you might be in situation that you cannot address an issue due to a strategy or design direction you want to take as a designer which is ok. You cannot satisfy everyone.
But customers are only biased to what they value..
As long as the discussion is respectful, objective and backed with personal experimce there should be no attempt to supress openions or calling customers stupid by saying logic do not work...the only logic I know is customer satisfaction and perception...
I have learned to ignore feedbacks that are directly or indirectly blaming customers for providing their openions and so should you..
I have also learned to check the feedback background and the best compass here is the reviewers system..
At the end if the day, who now days buy a product before checking reviews and seeing the bad, good reviews and the ratios. If a vendor sold 10k unit and there is 10k complaint that means the product is bad..that's why I do not buy the volume point much...if product is bad, even if volumes are low it will still show in reviews.

 

[leepink23]

Wow the Vitriol towards Apex is just stunning. I am not a fan-boy of apex and really of no products or companies. I've been reefing for a very long time and remember when a pinpoint pH meter, thermometer, refractometer, and some test kits were all the controller anyone needed. Times have moved on and technology has assimilated our hobby. It amazes me what we have available today and how this would have been science fiction back in the 90's when we were happy to keep a softy alive!

I never thought I needed or wanted a controller- but as life gets more complicated....family....career obligations....traveling....I decided to take the plunge. I am a Mac/iOS person going all the way back to the Apple II in the 80's. Sooo although GHL looked cool and intrigued me when I was in the market it didn't fit my preferences. I was hoping the Vertex would come through but that's another story!!

I went with Apex. I personally do not like the orange color and the Fisher Price look but that is simply cosmetic. I decided to incorporate the Apex into my new build and honestly I have not had any regrets. I know folks out there have problems. I for one have not had anything major. I had a DDR optical sensor crap out and Neptune promptly replaced it. I've had a leak detector go on the fritz and did not bother contacting Neptune about this. I have had a few issues with the DOS getting air in the tubing. I think its due to Neptunes tubing being so stiff. I found some food grade soft silicon tubing on amazon and that problem is history.

So again, I've had no major issues with my Apex on my new system or my ApexEL which has been running on my frag system. I have multiple DOS for AWC and dosing and again no issues other than what I mentioned. I have two WAV's and thus far no issues.

I picked up the Trident because I was already heavily invested in Apex. I was very close to pulling the trigger on an Alkatronic and honestly didn't simply because Neptune released the trident as I was a day or two from purchasing. I received my Trident on the second round from BRS- it was a breeze to setup, it has worked without issue or flaw. I purchased a second one for my Display tank, the first I put on my Frag system where I have many high end SPS. The second one has been working without issue and was just as easily setup. I compared with my Hanna checkers and Red Sea Tests as well as a recent ATI ICP test and everything is in agreement within the error ranges.

I decided to try the DOS control to manage my dosing of ATI Essentials Pro.....thus far perfect. I have set my system to control the dKH at 8.5 +/- .25 and it does.

Do I really want to check Ca and Mg several times a day....heck NO! As you can see they don't really change much- especially magnesium which is essentially a flat line. However, the insights into dKH fluctuations were interesting and helpful. I am happy with how the system is working and thought I would let others know on this thread who might want to hear something about the Trident.

The deflection point in the graph is the calibration event.

I apologize to those who clearly have visceral deep feelings of animosity toward apex....this is not personal for me and in the future if something greater and better comes along I may ditch the yuk orange plastic for the shiny new toy but for now this is working for me and I am satisfied.

I getting ready to pull the trigger on a calcium reactor- the Dastaco has been top on my list but after seeing the comments above I'll wait and see a little bit longer.....

Happy Reefing!

Thanks for sharing your trident results! Has noise been an issue with this machine? Also awesome you have snagged 2, lol I can’t get 1, but that will eventually happen. I am curious if any trident owners have benefited from the calcium/mg testing. I dose 2 part via dos so I think the trident gives me the most. Which tubing did you get for your DOS? I still have the air bubble problem.

 

[leepink23]

not sure the word biased is fair unless customer is a competitor. Every customer feedback should be valuable regardless. Ita a matter of, can you address or. Or not...you might be in situation that you cannot address an issue due to a strategy or design direction you want to take as a designer which is ok. You cannot satisfy everyone.
But customers are only biased to what they value..
As long as the discussion is respectful, objective and backed with personal experimce there should be no attempt to supress openions or calling customers stupid by saying logic do not work...the only logic I know is customer satisfaction and perception...
I have learned to ignore feedbacks that are directly or indirectly blaming customers for providing their openions and so should you..
I have also learned to check the feedback background and the best compass here is the reviewers system..I cannot take a
At the end if the day, who now days buy a product before checking reviews and seeing the bad, good reviews and the ratios. If a vendor sold 10k unit and there is 10k complaint that means the product is bad..that's why I do not buy the volume point much...if product is bad, even if volumes are low it will still show in reviews.

Have you setup your kh director yet? If so how is it comparing to your kh guardian?

 

[mitch91175]

Wow the Vitriol towards Apex is just stunning. I am not a fan-boy of apex and really of no products or companies. I've been reefing for a very long time and remember when a pinpoint pH meter, thermometer, refractometer, and some test kits were all the controller anyone needed. Times have moved on and technology has assimilated our hobby. It amazes me what we have available today and how this would have been science fiction back in the 90's when we were happy to keep a softy alive!

I never thought I needed or wanted a controller- but as life gets more complicated....family....career obligations....traveling....I decided to take the plunge. I am a Mac/iOS person going all the way back to the Apple II in the 80's. Sooo although GHL looked cool and intrigued me when I was in the market it didn't fit my preferences. I was hoping the Vertex would come through but that's another story!!

I went with Apex. I personally do not like the orange color and the Fisher Price look but that is simply cosmetic. I decided to incorporate the Apex into my new build and honestly I have not had any regrets. I know folks out there have problems. I for one have not had anything major. I had a DDR optical sensor crap out and Neptune promptly replaced it. I've had a leak detector go on the fritz and did not bother contacting Neptune about this. I have had a few issues with the DOS getting air in the tubing. I think its due to Neptunes tubing being so stiff. I found some food grade soft silicon tubing on amazon and that problem is history.

So again, I've had no major issues with my Apex on my new system or my ApexEL which has been running on my frag system. I have multiple DOS for AWC and dosing and again no issues other than what I mentioned. I have two WAV's and thus far no issues.

I picked up the Trident because I was already heavily invested in Apex. I was very close to pulling the trigger on an Alkatronic and honestly didn't simply because Neptune released the trident as I was a day or two from purchasing. I received my Trident on the second round from BRS- it was a breeze to setup, it has worked without issue or flaw. I purchased a second one for my Display tank, the first I put on my Frag system where I have many high end SPS. The second one has been working without issue and was just as easily setup. I compared with my Hanna checkers and Red Sea Tests as well as a recent ATI ICP test and everything is in agreement within the error ranges.

I decided to try the DOS control to manage my dosing of ATI Essentials Pro.....thus far perfect. I have set my system to control the dKH at 8.5 +/- .25 and it does.

Do I really want to check Ca and Mg several times a day....heck NO! As you can see they don't really change much- especially magnesium which is essentially a flat line. However, the insights into dKH fluctuations were interesting and helpful. I am happy with how the system is working and thought I would let others know on this thread who might want to hear something about the Trident.

The deflection point in the graph is the calibration event.

I apologize to those who clearly have visceral deep feelings of animosity toward apex....this is not personal for me and in the future if something greater and better comes along I may ditch the yuk orange plastic for the shiny new toy but for now this is working for me and I am satisfied.

I getting ready to pull the trigger on a calcium reactor- the Dastaco has been top on my list but after seeing the comments above I'll wait and see a little bit longer.....

Happy Reefing!

Personally I do not see this thread about being against Apex or the Trident. Just those of us discussing the system that we have in place to hopefully assist others with their decision. The Trident seems to be great for the hobby because it will bring better products to market, just like the other products before it. For those that could get their hands on a Trident and enjoy using it, that is awesome. Maybe more of those people will contribute to this thread so others can decide.

I personally have a lot invested in my Apex ecosystem. I also chose to go with a different product for a number of reasons. First and foremost with me, the Trident wasn't even available when I made my purchase. For the past 15 or so months I've had the pleasure of stable dKH using the Alkatronic. If I had to make this decision again I'd likely make the same decision based on what I personally know about the Alkatronic today.

I was considering purchasing a Trident, but now will not purchase a Trident even when available primarily because of what I put together about the reagent cost versus other products. The Apex to me is a really good piece of kit. Some of the components could use a revamp though to make them more reliable.

 

[mitch91175]

Here is a pic of my last 30 days of measurements with the Alkatronic.

At one point during this time, I was testing every hour. Then I moved to every 2 hours, then 3, and now at every 4 hours. I know some may think why so frequent and shouldn't the system already be stable with me using the Alkatronic for quite some time already.

Well the system is stable as long as I do not mess with it, lol. I added in a kalk stirrer to the mix and so far so good.

Since 3/21, my Alkatronic has done a total of 824 test. My reagent usage, well, not even a drop in the hat to me. It is sooooooo inexpensive to use.

 

[mitch91175]

The issue that I personally have with the Trident is that I would be REQUIRED to test at least 4/2/2. I am not going to try to figure out why this is the case or argue about it, but that requirement at a minimum would have me spending $240/year for testing. Yeah I know that isn't really a lot of money in the grand scheme of things, but let's do some math on if I had the Trident test 824 times during the same period. I estimate my current cost / test at around $0.04 using the Alkatronic. So my total expenses for those 824 test is $32.96. I know you really cannot compare apples to apples since you cannot just test dKH with the Trident. If I tested that same amount of test with the Trident, my overall expense would have been $152.83.

I derived at that number by taking the advertised number of dKH test for a box of Trident reagent (240). Do divide 824/240 and that 3.4. So 3.4 * 44.95 (no shipping either) is the $152.83. Definitely makes sense to be 3x since the Trident does test 3 parameters. But, I do not think I'd really want to test calcium and magnesium 408 time during the same period. Now if I could during that same period have tested calcium/magnesium 90 times that in MY situation makes more sense.

Just as all human beings, I compare what I have to what is available (except with my wife, lol). If what is available doesn't provide and greater advantage than what I already have, then I keep with what I have and wait for something else to come around.

Once any PO4/NO3 automated tester is released, that will definitely be my next purchase as long as the long term cost are justifiable and I feel that the company behind said product will provide the necessary support when/if needed.

 

[mitch91175]

Trident is a revolutionary product for our industry. We all should appreciate what it is and what it will bring next. Just like the KH Guardian was revolutionary, other products will follow and we all will have likes/dislikes about each and every product launched forever.

The main thing is that we speak about those issues. It may come across as complaining by some, but if you have a product and there isn't something you like about it, let others know, specially the manufacturer if they are in-tune with their customer base.

The Alkatronic was a extremely loud machine when first purchased and now it isn't as loud (but still noticeable). That is something that those that have it has to live with, just as those with the Trident and the R2D2 sound.

At least we know for sure that the folk over at Focustronic are doing their best to get rid of the noise and look to have quieter stepper pumps now so the noise likely will be mostly eliminated in the near future.

 

[Water Dog]

Which tubing did you get for your DOS? I still have the air bubble problem.

Replace the leaky screw on soft tubing compression connectors with John Guest fittings. It will allow you to use standard RO tubing with the DOS and will solve the problems of air leaks when using a DOS with a DDR. Here’s a great RC thread for that mod...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2544673

And here’s a link to the John Guest Adapters used...

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/john-guest-female-adapter-nptf-polypro-1-4-x-1-8-nptf

 

[CDavmd]

Thanks for sharing your trident results! Has noise been an issue with this machine? Also awesome you have snagged 2, lol I can’t get 1, but that will eventually happen. I am curious if any trident owners have benefited from the calcium/mg testing. I dose 2 part via dos so I think the trident gives me the most. Which tubing did you get for your DOS? I still have the air bubble problem.

Hi! Nope the noise to me is negligible....sounds like a little robot. My wife and more importantly my dog that barks at everything have yet to notice it.

You have two options for the DOS Mod-

1. Use the John Guest adapter and regular RO Tubing. I tried this but since RO tubing is not transparent you can't tell if bubbles are forming. I tried refrigerator/ice-maker tubing which is RO but transparent and after a few weeks I saw air pockets forming again. Not sure if it is from the DOS or just from the actual solution ( I use ATI Essentials Pro and find little micro bubbles form along the tubing after a while- I think it is off gassing from the solution.

2. Use the connectors that came with the DOS and this tubing: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N8S86PS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I find that it is soft, transparent and thus far no issues.

Regarding Calcium- it was good to see where it was and how much I am using but honestly I see no real advantage to testing it multiple times a day but the design of the Trident is what it is and I am satisfied with it.

 

[leepink23]

Hi! Nope the noise to me is negligible....sounds like a little robot. My wife and more importantly my dog that barks at everything have yet to notice it.

You have two options for the DOS Mod-

1. Use the John Guest adapter and regular RO Tubing. I tried this but since RO tubing is not transparent you can't tell if bubbles are forming. I tried refrigerator/ice-maker tubing which is RO but transparent and after a few weeks I saw air pockets forming again. Not sure if it is from the DOS or just from the actual solution ( I use ATI Essentials Pro and find little micro bubbles form along the tubing after a while- I think it is off gassing from the solution.

2. Use the connectors that came with the DOS and this tubing: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N8S86PS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I find that it is soft, transparent and thus far no issues.

Regarding Calcium- it was good to see where it was and how much I am using but honestly I see no real advantage to testing it multiple times a day but the design of the Trident is what it is and I am satisfied with it.

Thank you, I appreciate the feedback!! I will check this tubing out!!!!

 

[Water Dog]

1. Use the John Guest adapter and regular RO Tubing. I tried this but since RO tubing is not transparent you can't tell if bubbles are forming. I tried refrigerator/ice-maker tubing which is RO but transparent and after a few weeks I saw air pockets forming again. Not sure if it is from the DOS or just from the actual solution ( I use ATI Essentials Pro and find little micro bubbles form along the tubing after a while- I think it is off gassing from the solution.

Did you use Teflon paste or Plasto Joint Stik for the John Guest fitting threads? This is a very important step for the John Guest DOS mod to ensure no air leaks at the connection. I also cut the barb nubs so the RO tubing can fully seat into the quick connect fitting. I used Plasto Joint Stik on my threads with the “clear” RO tubing from BRS and while the tubing isn’t exactly perfectly see through clear, I haven’t experienced any bubble issues with this mod that I can see.

 

[Thales]

I am an Apex person...took me a long long time to use it for more than anything but turning off my MH when the water temp got too hot. I slowly added extra components and began to trust them, so added more. The transition from classic to 2016 was a pain, but so is any transition. I still have a bunch of redundancy, which I was fanatical about, but that is slowly becoming less important to me because it seems to me that all we are doing is pushing around risk. I think controllers are now good enough that the risk of using one or not using one is about the same.
I travel a lot, for extended periods of time, and the controller has remotely saved my tanks several times.
One thing that made me go with Apex is that they are in the US, so they are close to me...I have had several horrible experiences with support/parts/repair with out of country companies (even ones that have a US 'representative') and I don't want that experience ever again.

Another thing is that when I wanted a controller, Apex was really the only serious game in town, and I like the direction that they have moved over the years, and I don't think they are going to vanish. I don't care at all about product colors, or if it feels robust - I have the same feeling I had during ER vs ASM acrylic debate of 15 or 20 years ago, namely, I don't have to look at the stuff and it isn't going to be in any situation where it needs to be robust. YMMV.

I think I have an opinion on the Trident that I haven't seen expressed, but I could be wrong about that. I like it because it was super easy to set up, the reagents require almost no work from me, and I like the idea of sending an important piece of testing equipment in for servicing. I am happy to pay for all of that. I want to spend less time with stuff that supports the tank and more time with the animals. Again, YMMV.

New, and newer controllers are great, but I would need a really compelling reason to switch over, or double up on equipment, which has not presented itself yet.

 

[GoVols]

Trident is a revolutionary product for our industry. We all should appreciate what it is and what it will bring next. Just like the KH Guardian was revolutionary, other products will follow and we all will have likes/dislikes about each and every product launched forever.

The main thing is that we speak about those issues. It may come across as complaining by some, but if you have a product and there isn't something you like about it, let others know, specially the manufacturer if they are in-tune with their customer base.

The Alkatronic was a extremely loud machine when first purchased and now it isn't as loud (but still noticeable). That is something that those that have it has to live with, just as those with the Trident and the R2D2 sound.

At least we know for sure that the folk over at Focustronic are doing their best to get rid of the noise and look to have quieter stepper pumps now so the noise likely will be mostly eliminated in the near future.

Mitch,
The Alkatroinc is pretty darn close to perfection when paired up with a calcium reactor. The Bloothtooth socket while on "Action Mode" has worked flawless. I tuned my cal reactor's melting point a tad lower than it used to be, and let the BlueTooth socket kick in every day or two for about two hours.

I do have a V3, and the smaller B and D pumps still need work to quiet those down more.

I only test cal and mag every two weeks and bump up cal by 20 ppm, once a month.

The high cost of the Trident's maintenance and it's reagents, that Neptune will keep to their self is pretty darn greedy. JMO... but those are two factors that be take-in'd in consideration before buying. The Trident is cheaper up front, but it will cost more over the long haul.

FWIW, Mitch
I logged on the Marine Depot over the weekend to by more salt (10% off for Father's day). I had over $100 in MD points, so I tossed the PM1 module in the cart too...

 

[mitch91175]

Well I couldn’t avoid it, I broke down and bought a Trident. Will definitely be reporting back to this thread once received and setup. Going to see how they compare for myself.

My Alkatronic will still be king on my display tank though. Trident will eventually go to the frag tank once I convert it to SPS from zoanthids. Do not think I want to deck out the frag tank with everything I have on the display for sure.

 

[GoVols]

Well I couldn’t avoid it, I broke down and bought a Trident. Will definitely be reporting back to this thread once received and setup. Going to see how they compare for myself.

My Alkatronic will still be king on my display tank though. Trident will eventually go to the frag tank once I convert it to SPS from zoanthids. D
o not think I want to deck out the frag tank with everything I have on the display for sure.

I'll tag with you on the Trident, for sure.

(lol)
I'm still on Apex Classic.

Are you sill pushing a calcium reactor?

 

[mitch91175]

I'll tag with you on the Trident, for sure.

(lol)
I'm still on Apex Classic.

Are you sill pushing a calcium reactor?

Absolutely and have no thought on changing from it.

 

[CDavmd]

Did you use Teflon paste or Plasto Joint Stik for the John Guest fitting threads? This is a very important step for the John Guest DOS mod to ensure no air leaks at the connection. I also cut the barb nubs so the RO tubing can fully seat into the quick connect fitting. I used Plasto Joint Stik on my threads with the “clear” RO tubing from BRS and while the tubing isn’t exactly perfectly see through clear, I haven’t experienced any bubble issues with this mod that I can see.

I did use rectorseal paste but did not cut the nubs off. Might try again.

 

[leepink23]

I am an Apex person...took me a long long time to use it for more than anything but turning off my MH when the water temp got too hot. I slowly added extra components and began to trust them, so added more. The transition from classic to 2016 was a pain, but so is any transition. I still have a bunch of redundancy, which I was fanatical about, but that is slowly becoming less important to me because it seems to me that all we are doing is pushing around risk. I think controllers are now good enough that the risk of using one or not using one is about the same.
I travel a lot, for extended periods of time, and the controller has remotely saved my tanks several times.
One thing that made me go with Apex is that they are in the US, so they are close to me...I have had several horrible experiences with support/parts/repair with out of country companies (even ones that have a US 'representative') and I don't want that experience ever again.

Another thing is that when I wanted a controller, Apex was really the only serious game in town, and I like the direction that they have moved over the years, and I don't think they are going to vanish. I don't care at all about product colors, or if it feels robust - I have the same feeling I had during ER vs ASM acrylic debate of 15 or 20 years ago, namely, I don't have to look at the stuff and it isn't going to be in any situation where it needs to be robust. YMMV.

I think I have an opinion on the Trident that I haven't seen expressed, but I could be wrong about that. I like it because it was super easy to set up, the reagents require almost no work from me, and I like the idea of sending an important piece of testing equipment in for servicing. I am happy to pay for all of that. I want to spend less time with stuff that supports the tank and more time with the animals. Again, YMMV.

New, and newer controllers are great, but I would need a really compelling reason to switch over, or double up on equipment, which has not presented itself yet.

The easy setup is one of the reasons I decided on the Trident! Still no luck getting one but patience is a key in this hobby!