Your thoughts on wild caught stuff.

[mindme]

Its not easy to avoid wild caught stuff. Most invertebrates are wild caught. Same with the expansive fish, but there should be a law in place on this hobby for certain fish to be left alone in the wild if there is a chance of making them go extinct.

There are laws for that, it's the endangered species list.

 

[MaxTremors]

sweetie do you even do your research on how coral collecting is done? it’s done by taking a few small frags in the big reef and growing them in a farm, next frag of that frag a few months later will be transported into a frag aquarium where it is raised to sell its own frags. low footprint, higher turnout

Sweetie do you even do your research on how coral collecting is done? Mariculturing is only done with species where that’s possible (whether logistically or financially). Most LPS, are still truly wild caught (even species that could be maricultured like Euphyllia/Fimbriaphyllia are still mostly wild caught).

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Why wouldn’t you? It has a negligible effect on wild populations, it supports poor families in rural communities and it gives the people a valid reason to protect the environment around them because it’s in their own self interest to keep the reefs healthy and producing.

If there’s no value in keeping the reef intact what do you think will happen? Most likely using dynamite to get building materials and stuff like that.

Now, fish caught with dynamite fishing and cyanide is obviously a completely different matter but that seems to be less of a factor nowadays than in the 90’s/early 2000’s.
Also, there needs to be continuous improvements in the supply chain to minimize losses obviously.

I would NEVER! Lol

 

[Leo_ian]

Sweetie do you even do your research on how coral collecting is done? Mariculturing is only done with species where that’s possible (whether logistically or financially). Most LPS, are still truly wild caught (even species that could be maricultured like Euphyllia/Fimbriaphyllia are still mostly wild caught).

i was mainly targeting sps
sorry for not clarifying
i completely forgot about LPS because they are too expensive for me

 

[blaxsun]

This entire discussion is bordering on lunacy. It's akin to people thinking that their beef comes in a neat package at WalMart as opposed to farms and slaughterhouses.

Another degree or two and the only "wild" fish left in existence will be the ones adorning our reef tanks.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Michael has nearly perfectly expressed my thoughts already. Since most other uses of reefs are much more destructive, sustainable use for aquarium trade can be a good thing. It can help people make their living in a relatively ecofriendly way. Sustainable use of wild resources isn't a bad thing. Even nature conservation organisations recommend and support sustainable use of wild resources, for example in rainforests.

I am aware that maybe not all fish for aquarium trade are caught sustainably but we should try to make sure all are.

The positive side of captive bread fish is that they are more healthy and already perfectly acclimated to captive conditions. However, also captive bread fish eat wild caught fish and shrimps and maybe need a lot of energy for their rearing. So it really isn't easy and straightforward to compare the ecological footprint of wild caught and captive bred fish.

Like vegetarism not necessarily has a smaller CO2 footprint than eating chicken, pork or fish from time to time if eating lots of cheese and dairy products.

 

[ying yang]

Here's my opinion:

The corals are getting bleached, fast. Fish that rely on those corals to survive die. Fish that rely on the fish that rely on the coral die. What I'm trying to say is the lower something is on the food chain, the more important it is. If the lowest thing on the food chain dies, everything dies. If the highest thing on the food chain dies, nothing happens. If all reefs die this would have a terrible affect on the ocean. Were above the ocean on the food chain, so if the ocean dies, we die. We need to leave da fish alone!

Just answering about part you say " if highest thing on food chain dies then nothing happens " well many would say sharks are highest on food chain and if all the documentaries, videos,articles are true then all the sharks getting killed for shark fin soup and whatever else,then the sharks can't keep the fishes or other animals in check beneath them on the food chain and causes problems.watch some videos,articles on sharks getting killed and maybe view change.but again I have no problem with getting wild caught fish for my tank but I would hope and like its done in a good,reasonably,sustained way

Overfishing of sharks hits entire marine food chain

Eliminating leading predators such as sharks from the seas creates a big problem – a trophic cascade, writes JOHN GIBBONS

www.irishtimes.com

Just one of many articles out there

 

[Majolica15]

What you’re missing is nuance. You’re taking a multidimensional issue, and trying to make it one dimensional. Your comment regarding, essentially, only the lowest animal on the food chain being important to the entire chain is flat out wrong. Look at all the countries that eliminated large predators, like wolves and cougars. They are being overrun by several of the prey animals. Deer are so overpopulated in parts of the US that they are dying in massive numbers from starvation and disease. Each member of the environment plays a role, and the loss of that member has consequences.

in regards to the wild caught debate, once again, there are multiple issues to consider. You commented about the carbon impact of boats to catch the fish. But captive raised fish do, and will, have a significant carbon footprint as well. The transport of goods to care for the fish, energy to care for the fish, the use of other marine animals to feed the fish… all of that needs to be considered. I can’t tell you which has a higher carbon footprint (though I could make an educated guess), I haven’t done the math. But what I can tell you is that it’s far more complicated than just looking at the boats used to capture fish.

Looking at salmon farming is worth the time to understand the nuance. There are real concerns about how salmon farming is impacting the environment around the farms, in ways that the catching of wild salmon isn’t. Here’s a risk assessment that discusses some of those concerns. Just remember, even this is likely to carry some bias (follow the money). I don’t have a lot of time at the moment, so this was the first one I found.

Risk assessment of the environmental impact of Norwegian Atlantic salmon farming

Abstract. Norwegian aquaculture has grown from its pioneering days in the 1970s to be a major industry. It is primarily based on culturing Atlantic salmon

academic.oup.com

At the end of the day, I do think that captive breeding is the future of this hobby, for a lot of reasons, some good, and some bad. But so many species aren’t there yet. And the issue is so much more complex than just, “boats are used and fish are removed from the ocean”. And really, regarding carbon footprint, unless you never use a product that has been mass produced, or was produced using products coming from the global supply chain, and never use transportation, etc., your hands are just as dirty as everyone else’s.

 

[3429810]

Would you ever buy wild caught stuff? I would NEVER, In my whole life buy wild caught stuff.

I’m not from Aus but I thought most of your corals there are wild caught?

Just answering about part you say " if highest thing on food chain dies then nothing happens " well many would say sharks are highest on food chain and if all the documentaries, videos,articles are true then all the sharks getting killed for shark fin soup and whatever else,then the sharks can't keep the fishes or other animals in check beneath them on the food chain and causes problems.watch some videos,articles on sharks getting killed and maybe view change.but again I have no problem with getting wild caught fish for my tank but I would hope and like its done in a good,reasonably,sustained way

Overfishing of sharks hits entire marine food chain

Eliminating leading predators such as sharks from the seas creates a big problem – a trophic cascade, writes JOHN GIBBONS

www.irishtimes.com

Just one of many articles out there

I don’t think he thought through anything if he claims that the biggest predator is an eco system dies it does nothing. For example just look at any areas where wolves were hunted out. Other animals explode in population and then it shifts the balance. Losing one species in any eco system there are plenty of examples around the world of it happening. The kid is just killing time on here trolling until he gets his tank set up it seems like.

 

[Lyss]

Just answering about part you say " if highest thing on food chain dies then nothing happens " well many would say sharks are highest on food chain and if all the documentaries, videos,articles are true then all the sharks getting killed for shark fin soup and whatever else,then the sharks can't keep the fishes or other animals in check beneath them on the food chain and causes problems.watch some videos,articles on sharks getting killed and maybe view change.but again I have no problem with getting wild caught fish for my tank but I would hope and like its done in a good,reasonably,sustained way

Overfishing of sharks hits entire marine food chain

Eliminating leading predators such as sharks from the seas creates a big problem – a trophic cascade, writes JOHN GIBBONS

www.irishtimes.com

Just one of many articles out there

I took that as we are the highest thing on the food chain. We kill the sharks

 

[3429810]

I took that as we are the highest thing on the food chain. We kill the sharks

No “we” don’t. I’m not going to take blame for a bunch of people I don’t know or agree with and I’m sure everyone else on here is the same. “We” do pretty minimal damage as a hobby.

 

[Aiptaisia anemone]

83% of reefers dont care about the environment

I don’t think thats true cuz reefers appreciate the reefs more than anyone… i think.

 

[Lyss]

No “we” don’t. I’m not going to take blame for a bunch of people I don’t know or agree with and I’m sure everyone else on here is the same. “We” do pretty minimal damage as a hobby.

I didn't mean we in the hobby, but we humans are on the top of the food chain -- it's just a generalization so no need to take it personally.

It's also not about taking blame for another person's actions, more like recognizing that humans do a lot of damage. From a conservation perspective it doesn't make sense to get defensive and say well I'm not personally to blame, and refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[iannarelli]

Here's my opinion:

The corals are getting bleached, fast. Fish that rely on those corals to survive die. Fish that rely on the fish that rely on the coral die. What I'm trying to say is the lower something is on the food chain, the more important it is. If the lowest thing on the food chain dies, everything dies. If the highest thing on the food chain dies, nothing happens. If all reefs die this would have a terrible affect on the ocean. Were above the ocean on the food chain, so if the ocean dies, we die. We need to leave da fish alone!

This is an extremely naive, and incorrect understanding of how food webs and food chains work. They are extremely complex and if the "highest thing" dies, you have an explosion of prey species, which can have untold consequences to ecosystems and habitat. Read up on trophic cascade.

There is nothing wrong with responsibly and ethically sourcing wild fish, the trick is having confidence that what you're being told is being done on the other side of the world at the time you're buying a fish is true. I'd like to see more certifications, almost a chain of custody, around the origins and methods used to catch wild fish.

You say you're a vegetarian, do you only eat organic fruit and vegetables? Otherwise the chemicals used to to grow and harvest your food have devastating affects on insect populations around the world. Which snowballs into larger problems both in the food chain and with pollinators we depend on to grow food for humans. Do you wear leather? Wool? Eat honey? Drink milk or eat eggs? All of those are derived from the exploitation of animals. As others on here are saying, you're initial question is innocent enough, but to say that X% of reefers don't care about the environment is just you stirring the pot in the worst possible way. The world is not white and black, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you want to argue with others about why they "should leave da fish alone" you need to have better rebuttals than you don't own the house you live in or aren't legally allowed to drive.

 

[Lyss]

This is an extremely naive, and incorrect understanding of how food webs and food chains work. They are extremely complex and if the "highest thing" dies, you have an explosion of prey species, which can have untold consequences to ecosystems and habitat. Read up on trophic cascade.

There is nothing wrong with responsibly and ethically sourcing wild fish, the trick is having confidence that what you're being told is being done on the other side of the world at the time you're buying a fish is true. I'd like to see more certifications, almost a chain of custody, around the origins and methods used to catch wild fish.

You say you're a vegetarian, do you only eat organic fruit and vegetables? Otherwise the chemicals used to to grow and harvest your food have devastating affects on insect populations around the world. Which snowballs into larger problems both in the food chain and with pollinators we depend on to grow food for humans. Do you wear leather? Wool? Eat honey? Drink milk or eat eggs? All of those are derived from the exploitation of animals. As others on here are saying, you're initial question is innocent enough, but to say that X% of reefers don't care about the environment is just you stirring the pot in the worst possible way. The world is not white and black, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you want to argue with other about why they "should leaveda fish alone" you need to have better rebuttals than you don't own the house you live in or aren't legally allowed to drive.

Honestly I didn't take him/this entirely so seriously. This is the same kid that posted the milk/calcium thread and a few others -- it's either designed to get folks passionately engaged like this, or he's honestly truly dumb.

 

[ol.lo]

Would you ever buy wild caught stuff? I would NEVER, In my whole life buy wild caught stuff.

The growth of aquaculture fish is ensured by food produced from ... WILD fish meal !!!

 

[iannarelli]

Honestly I didn't take him/this entirely so seriously. This is the same kid that posted the milk/calcium thread and a few others -- it's either designed to get folks passionately engaged like this, or he's honestly truly dumb.

Fair enough. I wasn't aware of their previous posts, but reading through their responses in this thread I definitely got somewhat of a troll vibe from them. But seeing as how their arguments were quite simplistic and they were woefully unprepared to actually debate and defend their positions, I decided to take that chance to dunk on their feigned moral superiority with my intellectually superiority. LOL

 

[New&no clue]

We all do different things to help somehow. It may be buying locally to help our community. It may be recycling our bottles and cans to reduce landfill space. It may be hunting which is better for the environment and food chain than processed meat. It may be buying only captive breed fish. Whatever it is, it's good, and one should not be looked upon as better or worse. At the end of the day, we all do 100 things that make the world better and 100 things to make the world worse. We think we have it all figured out when we're young, but as you get older, you realize it's just not that simple.

 

[Lyss]

Fair enough. I wasn't aware of their previous posts, but reading through their responses in this thread I definitely got somewhat of a troll vibe from them. But seeing as how their arguments were quite simplistic and they were woefully unprepared to actually debate and defend their positions, I decided to take that chance to dunk on their feigned moral superiority with my intellectually superiority. LOL

LOL, the struggle to hold it back is real

 

[jfoahs04]

Honestly I didn't take him/this entirely so seriously. This is the same kid that posted the milk/calcium thread and a few others -- it's either designed to get folks passionately engaged like this, or he's honestly truly dumb.

Often times the answer is C., both A and B.