Prices going up again?

[piranhaman00]

Other factors??? You mean greed from the company who’s cornering the market and giving small lfs ridiculous wholesale prices that leave a tiny profit margin? I avoid this company like the plague!

Unfortunately I’ve lost enough money in fish in the last 2 years that I am biting the bullet and getting vortechs so there are no cords in my tank and my jump guard will sit flat to the top of the tank. Had a custom acrylic lid but fish still always managed to find a way to the floor. I despise mobius soo much that if another company had a similar wave maker with no cords in the tank I would pay more for their product, but alas no such company exists!

Wait what

I personally love Jebao and T5s and still have great prices! Don’t understand these prices, but people keep paying it!

 

[Cichlid Dad]

you mean exactly what youre doing here? it always make me laugh when people like you say this while doing the exact same thing. self reflection man, try it sometime.

.

 

[Richard baker]

My point is ok for instance I have a complete apex system with everything they offer , I also have radion gen 4 pros I run over my 220 and I use a Versa for my kalk and dos for my balling method. Now with that being said I have spent over 25000.00 over the years at brs so I am not against these companies I actually love them . My problem is for instance I have gen 4 pros and I love the lights now why can’t these companies offer replacement parts like ecotech used to I have a gen 6 and I am not impressed with the par output or the depth the light penetration is . So now they up the price of a light that does have better spread but less par penetration depth then a previous model a1000 light I should be able to buy replacement parts and fix the light just like I should be able to buy new pucks for my gen 4 lights or release the patent for those lights to a third party my reef is stable grows gorgeous coral these guy preach stability stability but yet won’t let us repair or current lights to keep that stability and it’s bs I want a top of the line light that I can service that I don’t have to replace every couple of years same with the pumps you can get a dry side you can get a controller u can get a wet side you can replace parts , the vectras they last about 18 months then they have some issue I know because I have had 4 of them . When Ecotech came out I have a issue u call and u could get a part or a upgraded part the new lights just do not put out the light the 4 gens did and they are almost twice the price it is absurd. When I ran MH I could buy a new bulb and I was good a ballast goes bad I could get a new one but once it was repaired I could replicate the same exact light output I had befor these guys completely redesign a top of the line light leave no support for the guys who do not want to change there whole lights every couple of years I want to be able to purchase parts for a 1000.00 light not replace it when you bring out the new version in a few months because you won’t sell the dang leds . Sorry my rant is over

 

[BeanAnimal]

I will also add another aspect to this whole mess...

Many of you think that this is a large hobby with a lot of money to be made. It is not buy any stretch of the imagination.

The only real way to make money in a niche like this is to have recurring income. If you build a single mid to high end product, your target market is actually VERY VERY SMALL. You have one time sales to a small group within the small hobby, then a lifetime of support for those people.

The way to survival is consumables, a larger product selection, less durable goods, and higher prices to compensate for lower sales and follow on support costs.

Notice that most of the long term vendors that deal in durable goods or hard to manufacture (halides, T5s) in this hobby cater to some other commercial or industrial sales channel? (lighting, pumps, water treatment, etc.) or import rebadged durables from China?

Notice that most companies that solely produce durable goods products for this hobby are either new or gone or owned by a larger roll-up? There are of course some exceptions (like Avast for example), but very few.

 

[Derrick0580]

My gripe is like most others, the R&D has long been paid for on most of these products. There is no way it costs more than $100 to produce an xr30 which makes the profit margin astronomical! Granted some products do not have the same room for that type of profit, but when you corner a section of the market and drive up prices it just doesn’t look good. I think these retailers and manufacturers forget this is mainly a hobby. Yeah some of us may be making some money off of it, however mostly it’s money spent never to be seen again.

 

[Pyrogens]

This is one of the major reasons why I refuse to run anything ecotech. If the rumor is true in regards to BRS also buying them out, it makes me feel even better to not give them a dime. I already refuse to give BRS my money, especially with Foster & Smith / Marine Depot gone. Sad.

 

[ninjamyst]

My gripe is like most others, the R&D has long been paid for on most of these products. There is no way it costs more than $100 to produce an xr30 which makes the profit margin astronomical! Granted some products do not have the same room for that type of profit, but when you corner a section of the market and drive up prices it just doesn’t look good. I think these retailers and manufacturers forget this is mainly a hobby. Yeah some of us may be making some money off of it, however mostly it’s money spent never to be seen again.

Naw, the manufacturers and vendors now know that hobby is more mainstream now and it's not people setting up 40g breeders in their basement anymore. New hobbyists are middle class or upper middle class with disposable income and crave instant gratification. That's literally the new society now. They understand that marketing and controlling the narrative via BRS and LFS and social media will convince new hobbyists their $1000 light is critical to the success of their $200 designer frag. It is much easier to sell pricey equipment as silver bullets to common reef problems than educating new hobbyists on proper coral care. Their target audience are the ones going on Instagram with their $1000 iPhones and following influencers that promote their brands. Their target audience wants best of the best and got the money to throw at it. Their target audience are not people on this forum doing the research. We are a minority to them.

 

[spsick]

This is one of the major reasons why I refuse to run anything ecotech. If the rumor is true in regards to BRS also buying them out, it makes me feel even better to not give them a dime. I already refuse to give BRS my money, especially with Foster & Smith / Marine Depot gone. Sad.

What is with the theme of hating BRS? Did they give you bad customer service a bunch or something or is it because they’re a “big company”? If big company bad you certainly don’t shop at Home Depot or grocery chains or Amazon right? A single Home Depot probably sells in a day what BRS sells in a month. Not trying to argue or anything just trying to understand.

 

[spsick]

My gripe is like most others, the R&D has long been paid for on most of these products. There is no way it costs more than $100 to produce an xr30 which makes the profit margin astronomical! Granted some products do not have the same room for that type of profit, but when you corner a section of the market and drive up prices it just doesn’t look good. I think these retailers and manufacturers forget this is mainly a hobby. Yeah some of us may be making some money off of it, however mostly it’s money spent never to be seen again.

As far as I know Ecotech and AI products are made in the USA meaning they have a WAY higher labor cost built in than Chinese made products. Probably more than 10x.

 

[Reefer Matt Verified Media Partner]

Naw, the manufacturers and vendors now know that hobby is more mainstream now and it's not people setting up 40g breeders in their basement anymore. New hobbyists are middle class or upper middle class with disposable income and crave instant gratification. That's literally the new society now. They understand that marketing and controlling the narrative via BRS and LFS and social media will convince new hobbyists their $1000 light is critical to the success of their $200 designer frag. It is much easier to sell pricey equipment as silver bullets to common reef problems than educating new hobbyists on proper coral care. Their target audience are the ones going on Instagram with their $1000 iPhones and following influencers that promote their brands. Their target audience wants best of the best and got the money to throw at it. Their target audience are not people on this forum doing the research. We are a minority to them.

 

[Pyrogens]

What is with the theme of hating BRS? Did they give you bad customer service a bunch or something or is it because they’re a “big company”? If big company bad you certainly don’t shop at Home Depot or grocery chains or Amazon right? A single Home Depot probably sells in a day what BRS sells in a month. Not trying to argue or anything just trying to understand.

I am not on the "theme" of hating on BRS just to hate on them. I genuinely have had bad experiences with them. I also did not like how they bought out Marine Depot because my experience with MD was the exact opposite of BRS. The narrative BRS takes towards pushing certain products with their videos also bugs me. But, this is certainly my personal opinions on the matter and luckily we live in a free world where we can spend our money where we want.

 

[duran760]

Just stop buying and go with cheaper lighting. Sales go down they have no other choice than to drop prices. Plenty of alternatives we over light our tanks anyway.

 

[Derrick0580]

What is with the theme of hating BRS? Did they give you bad customer service a bunch or something or is it because they’re a “big company”? If big company bad you certainly don’t shop at Home Depot or grocery chains or Amazon right? A single Home Depot probably sells in a day what BRS sells in a month. Not trying to argue or anything just trying to understand.

Home depot isn’t buying up all of the competition so they can set the price points. How long before they buy coralvue, red sea, or instant ocean? If I was a betting man I’d wager to say offers have been made on them and others. Anyone who has seen the wholesale lists know it’s barely profitable to run a small lfs when they only make $15 profit on a $500 item.

 

[Pyrogens]

Home depot isn’t buying up all of the competition so they can set the price points. How long before they buy coralvue, red sea, or instant ocean? If I was a betting man I’d wager to say offers have been made on them and others. Anyone who has seen the wholesale lists know it’s barely profitable to run a small lfs when they only make $15 profit on a $500 item.

Also, this. Having been in the wholesale side, this is especially true.

 

[Jamie814]

barely profitable to run a small lfs when they only make $15 profit on a $500 item.

Wholesale to retail on a xr30 is over $300 where are you getting your numbers from???

 

[Derrick0580]

As far as I know Ecotech and AI products are made in the USA meaning they have a WAY higher labor cost built in than Chinese made products. Probably more than 10x.

Yeah but all of their parts are sources from overseas! Most manufacturing only put 4-5% of their cost into labor. So $4-$5 for the 10 minutes it takes for an assembler to slap components together is a far cry from the $1000 retail price.

 

[BeanAnimal]

My gripe is like most others, the R&D has long been paid for on most of these products.

I am not defending any particular brand or price, but I don't think many of you understand (frankly have ANY CLUE) what it costs to run a company or how small this market really is. Not trying to insult anybody, but there is a difference between 3D printing a few frag racks and selling them on etsy and producing and supporting a light fixture.

You need to sell a whole lotta lights every day while paying your current bills and prepping the next thing that will keep people buying. Sure $400 profit per sale sounds like a lot... but say you have 10 employees at a measly 50K per year each. That is 500K + rollup costs (insurance, payroll tax, benefits, etc. ) So somewhere near 750K to 1M just in labor. That is without taking profit for your pocket.

So 750K / $400 profit per fixture = 1875 fixtures per year just to pay your staff.

Add in insurance, marketing, returns, shrink, lawyers, lawsuits, travel and transportation, mortgage/lease, utilities, R&D for next generation product, etc. You you are at easily 2-3 million a year in COST. So Let's call it $2,500,000 / $400 profit per fixture = 6250 fixtures JUST TO BREAK EVEN. And you have not paid yourself yet....

 

[ninjamyst]

I am not defending any particular brand or price, but I don't think many of you understand (frankly have ANY CLUE) what it costs to run a company or how small this market really is. Not trying to insult anybody, but there is a difference between 3D printing a few frag racks and selling them on etsy and producing and supporting a light fixture.

You need to sell a whole lotta lights every day while paying your current bills and prepping the next thing that will keep people buying. Sure $400 profit per sale sounds like a lot... but say you have 10 employees at a measly 50K per year each. That is 500K + rollup costs (insurance, payroll tax, benefits, etc. ) So somewhere near 750K to 1M just in labor. That is without taking profit for your pocket.

So 750K / $400 profit per fixture = 1875 fixtures per year just to pay your staff.

Add in insurance, marketing, returns, shrink, lawyers, lawsuits, travel and transportation, mortgage/lease, utilities, R&D for next generation product, etc. You you are at easily 2-3 million a year in COST. So Let's call it $2,500,000 / $400 profit per fixture = 6250 fixtures JUST TO BREAK EVEN. And you have not paid yourself yet....

LOL. Ecotech does not only sell lights. They sell a ton of other stuff, each making them profit. And they sell more than 6250 lights a year. If you don't think Ecotech is turning a profit, then YOU have no idea what you are talking about. Yes it is hard to run a profitable company but Ecotech is doing pretty freaking well or they wouldn't be the top brand and command a big market share and able to price their products so high.

If you are trying to say Ecotech is struggling as a company, you are dead wrong.

 

[BeanAnimal]

LOL. Ecotech does not only sell lights. They sell a ton of other stuff, each making them profit. And they sell more than 6250 lights a year. If you don't think Ecotech is turning a profit, then YOU have no idea what you are talking about. Yes it is hard to run a profitable company but Ecotech is doing pretty freaking well or they wouldn't be the top brand and command a big market share and able to price their products so high.

If you are trying to say Ecotech is struggling as a company, you are dead wrong.

Where did I say they were not making a profit or they were struggling or only sold lights? I would certainly hope that they are profitable.

To that end, they were rolled up into Aquatic Sales Solutions, inc., more than likely because they would not have been able to stand on their own forever, for the very reasons that I stated above.

More overhead and more people with their hand in the pot means less margin and higher prices, but more stability And leverage through a much larger company.

But, let’s get back to your misread of what I said.

6250 lights a year and 10 employees was a simple example using made up company and numbers to illustrate a simple point.

That point was that when actual real world constraints are applied, the profit margin is nowhere near what you think it is.

FWIW, Ecotech is Listed ant 23 employees and certainly many make more than 50K a year. They are listed at 5 Million in revenue, that is a TINY business with a huge overhead. No clue what the profit is, but there can’t be much left of 5M with that many employees, expenses, materials, etc. Feel free to do the math on your own.

For the record, I don’t care for their products or price/value proposition.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I am not defending any particular brand or price, but I don't think many of you understand (frankly have ANY CLUE) what it costs to run a company or how small this market really is. Not trying to insult anybody, but there is a difference between 3D printing a few frag racks and selling them on etsy and producing and supporting a light fixture.

You need to sell a whole lotta lights every day while paying your current bills and prepping the next thing that will keep people buying. Sure $400 profit per sale sounds like a lot... but say you have 10 employees at a measly 50K per year each. That is 500K + rollup costs (insurance, payroll tax, benefits, etc. ) So somewhere near 750K to 1M just in labor. That is without taking profit for your pocket.

So 750K / $400 profit per fixture = 1875 fixtures per year just to pay your staff.

Add in insurance, marketing, returns, shrink, lawyers, lawsuits, travel and transportation, mortgage/lease, utilities, R&D for next generation product, etc. You you are at easily 2-3 million a year in COST. So Let's call it $2,500,000 / $400 profit per fixture = 6250 fixtures JUST TO BREAK EVEN. And you have not paid yourself yet....

I love when people present it like everyone is in business of making no money. Perhaps even running at a loss.

This is probably why BRS bought them because they too wanted to lose money selling these light fixtures.



Side note, my bean animal overflow is running very well.