Where does pest responsibility start?

[always reefin]

Vendors have posted their qt procedures but yet you keep going on with this. We aren't dumb, we know why you made this thread and so on. You've been burned in the past, we get it. But if you think this thread is constructive then you are sadly mistaken. You have this ideal that in reality isn't possible. Many vendors have chimed in with their procedures but apparently they aren't good enough because things still fall thru the cracks. They have also stepped up in the few ways they can to make things right with consumers that did happen to get some pests but again, not enough.

Ridiculous! The industry as a whole needs to do more to prevent these things from happening. The vendors, your words, need to do more if they're going to make all the money they make (which we all know is a lot! way too much imo) to insure they deliver a quality pest free product....period. All of you who are apparently trying to defend the delivery of poor quality corals to those of who spend our hard earned money honestly makes me sick! Your point of view makes zero sense

 

[hybridazn]

Ridiculous! The industry as a whole needs to do more to prevent these things from happening. The vendors, your words, need to do more if they're going to make all the money they make (which we all know is a lot! way too much imo) to insure they deliver a quality pest free product....period. All of you who are apparently trying to defend the delivery of poor quality corals to those of who spend our hard earned money honestly makes me sick! Your point of view makes zero sense

I never once said that's it's ok for vendors to send out a poor product. In all fairness I agree that vendors should dip and qt everything before selling. What I disagree with is people thinking that they will get a pest free product every time out, its just not realistic. Would that be nice? Heck yea I'm all for that as well, but again this isn't a perfect world we live in. As I stated in the post you quoted, vendors have come on here explaining their qt procedures but nothing is perfect. There is a chance that they can ship something out with any type of pest on it. That is why I stress a good qt procedure on OUR END to help ensure that no unwanted pests enter our systems. And every vendor that is worth anything will try to make it right be it a full refund or sending another frag out no charge.

Again, I do not condone any vendor to knowingly ship out corals with pests, nor would I purchase from one as well.

You say you want to make a change in this hobby? You can start by stressing the need for everyone to have a qt setup of their own.

 

[always reefin]

I never once said that's it's ok for vendors to send out a poor product. In all fairness I agree that vendors should dip and qt everything before selling. What I disagree with is people thinking that they will get a pest free product every time out, its just not realistic. Would that be nice? Heck yea I'm all for that as well, but again this isn't a perfect world we live in. As I stated in the post you quoted, vendors have come on here explaining their qt procedures but nothing is perfect. There is a chance that they can ship something out with any type of pest on it. That is why I stress a good qt procedure on OUR END to help ensure that no unwanted pests enter our systems. And every vendor that is worth anything will try to make it right be it a full refund or sending another frag out no charge.

Again, I do not condone any vendor to knowingly ship out corals with pests, nor would I purchase from one as well.

You say you want to make a change in this hobby? You can start by stressing the need for everyone to have a qt setup of their own.

When spending your hard earned money on coral you should not receive with pests...period! Nor should you receive unhealthy or anything other than pictured when you purchased. If you are going to profit from the sale you need to deliver accordingly...period, no excuses.

 

[ronnie]

As I have been. QT is essential at all levels. Note the use of all. Not just when it suits or at the end. QT is completely different than dipping. I'd be curious to know if there are any vendors that implement an actual QT?

 

[Xingu]

The goal is to improve processes upstream from us.

Open up a business and show us how it's done. Your business plan doesn't line up with others business plan and you are beating a dead horse. Put up or shut up.

 

[OzarksReef]

Very interesting thread - just got through what looks like a couple of days with many posts. Thanks to the OP and to those who are willing to say the status quo could - SHOULD - be improved. I really don't read anything radical in what Ronnie and others are saying. Asking for an honest discourse on current QC practices and ways to make them better seems like what a community like R2R should be all about.

Some of what I've read in this thread leads me to some thoughts to consider:

1. Pests would not be as frequently encountered if there were better controls in place at all points in the supply chain.
2. Dipping by itself is not effective in preventing pests - yet that seems to be what all the naysayers accept as de facto "treatment" from vendors.
3. More effective QT protocols would drive the cost of corals up. Despite that fact, it seems like a worthwhile goal.
4. In a market where there are NO formal controls in place, pests will become the rule rather than the exception.
5. A lengthy QT process upstream of the hobbyist would make a dramatic difference in the prevalence of pests. We've all imagined what that might look like at the retail level - why not dream a little?

I haven't posted much in this forum or on the other big forum because it seems like anyone who wants to invite a serious discussion gets bashed. Come on, I enjoy raving about a beautiful coral as much as the next guy, but can't we salt and pepper in a few serious conversations here and there to keep things interesting? There are no sexy corals in this thread, but there is a notion on the table that could be game changing in our hobby. It's not radical but it would make a huge difference - not only for each of us as hobbyists, but for the future of this hobby we all love!

 

[DSP]

Wow just wow! I can't believe I'm seeing some of these ignorant replies from so many well known members here, How can someone argue against what Ronnie is trying to do? I guess it IS going to take you guys losing your entire tank to a pest in order for you to understand, yes us hobbiest should all qt our corals but you know what not everyone can whether it's money issues, room or time.Our hard earned money goes to the vendors for these corals so yes we should receive pest free coral every time (And yes its possible with proper qt)So dont make excuses,Vendors do have the room, money and time to setup full qt systems they just need to slow there roll take time and use it instead of pushing corals so fast out the door as soon as they receive them.Im not gunna go back and forth with people trying to argue either cause I can't hold my words like some just please realize what you guys are saying before you hit the post button.Ronnie is trying to bring awareness and yes it has already helped so please don't say nothing is getting accomplished by this thread.We will always have vendors sending out aefw covered acros as long as people have the mindset as some people in this thread.Theres another vendor on here that just sent frags out covered in aefw a few weeks ago and guess what? They continued sending there shipments out like nothing happened because they probably have the same mindset that it's all up to the customer to try and get passed our pest.

 

[ronnie]

It's a mindset that has to be changed. I can guarantee there are only a handful of vendors that I'll order from (just spent $800 with one this week).

And they have the same views that I do. So even though it isn't popular, and maybe even viewed as driving places out of business, I think it is something that can be done in the hobby because a select few are doing it.

Will it cost more for coral? Absolutely. And I'm ok with that. When you're spending the kind of money we spend, you'd think a little effort could be expended in providing a proper and quality product

 

[ronnie]

Your business plan doesn't line up with others business plan

So is a vendors business plan to merely move as much product as possible with no regard to the viability of the product?

 

[nova65ss]

It's a mindset that has to be changed. I can guarantee there are only a handful of vendors that I'll order from (just spent $800 with one this week).

And they have the same views that I do. So even though it isn't popular, and maybe even viewed as driving places out of business, I think it is something that can be done in the hobby because a select few are doing it.

Will it cost more for coral? Absolutely. And I'm ok with that. When you're spending the kind of money we spend, you'd think a little effort could be expended in providing a proper and quality product

I agree that everyone should do their best from vendors to hobbiests but we know these pests are very tough to get completely and when a lfs deals with as many corals as they do I don't carehow good the process at some point in time one is going to get by.

So what will be your qt regimine when ordering from these vendors "without pests"? Just wondering because mine will be the same regardless of what they say they do. I'm not taking anyones word for what they say when it comes to this!

That is the only reason I chimed in because to me it doesnt matter what the sellers do if I do it right I'm good. If someone doesn't qt that's 100% on them no one else but them.

 

[ronnie]

I'll QT them for 8-10 weeks because that is the protocol I have in place. This doesn't vary. What does vary is from whom I'll purchase them from.

 

[Xingu]

I doubt anyone is against what Ronnie is trying to do. We would all like to buy with confidence that our corals and fish are pest free but, we would end up paying astronomical amounts of money for coral. The "cheap" aspect of this hobby has already forced many LFS to close their doors because customers didn't want to pay for the added expense of a brick and mortar retail business.

If you are this passionate about the cause, get involved. Setup a watchdog group to keep an eye on shady vendors. Write a QT protocol and try to get the vendors to follow it. Write a business plan to sell corals and see for yourself what is involved (monetary, space required and added labor & equipment). I sold fw fish online on a fairly large scale and I know what is involved when large shipments need to go into QT (you will NEVER have enough tanks). Even if changes are made to the industry it will still be "Buyer Beware".

 

[ronnie]

I've sold coral before. I don't have the time or drive to do it. I enjoy the hobby as a hobby. When it became a business, it became work.

A watchdog group is a great idea. I'll definitely look into doing that.

Stores don't close because the coral are expensive. They close because they typically don't provide the proper services to make enough revenue.

I think coral prices would increase, but astronomically would be a tough sell. Possibly 10-20% I'd estimate. In turn, vendors would sell a higher quality product and it would also eliminate some of the fresh cut frags from wild colonies because they'd be able to take the time to run them through a QT process as frags if they chose.

 

[Xingu]

So is a vendors business plan to merely move as much product as possible with no regard to the viability of the product?

Figure out what is involved to do what you are asking. Remember it has to move products and still make enough money to feed your family and put your kids through school. ANY business plan must include moving a lot of product and making a profit or the business will fail. If they send out poor product they will fail. If enough people are ok with the level of viability they provide, it will be successful. With most industries there are different levels of quality. Not everyone is going to pay platinum level prices.

 

[Xingu]

Stores don't close because the coral are expensive. They close because they typically don't provide the proper services to make enough revenue.

Maybe some but many have closed because many hobbyists have determined they can get something online cheaper than what their LFS could sell it for. There is a lot of overhead when running an actual retail store. LFS needs volume and when their customer base goes away, it is only a matter of time until the store cannot afford to keep the doors open. This has happened far to often in my area.

 

[ronnie]

So it would probably look like 10-15 separate systems that would hold weekly shipments.

Each system would run through QT for 8-10weeks. Then on the 11th week, they would be out up for sale.

So upon startup, capital would need to be high enough to sustain that many weeks worth of stock. Once they are out of QT, frags would be sold and then weekly shipments would go into tanks and held and QT'ed. The cycle would continue.

Frags/colonies would then be moved to a separate system and held for sale.

Doesn't seem extraordinarily hard to me, but I like to keep it simple.

 

[ronnie]

Maybe some but many have closed because many hobbyists have determined they can get something online cheaper than what their LFS could sell it for. There is a lot of overhead when running an actual retail store. LFS needs volume and when their customer base goes away, it is only a matter of time until the store cannot afford to keep the doors open. This has happened far to often in my area.

This would be a separate issue, IMO, which would probably be best in its own thread.

 

[SCMatt]

Vendors do have the room, money and time to setup full qt systems they just need to slow there roll take time and use it instead of pushing corals so fast out the door as soon as they receive them.

The biggest thing in my mind would be that they should have the INTEREST to do it as well not just the time, space, money to do so. The entire goal of their business is to sell nice frags, and wild or aquacultured a nice frag should never include a pest.

There are plenty of vendors here and around the net that have fully pest free frags, its not as uncommon as some of these doubters make you think. Why can't this be the standard? Shouldn't be that difficult, slow down and inspect your stock. The whole speeding through chop shopping frags is another issue, that just tells me they want to get it out of their hands before it browns out or changes color. If you aren't demanding pest free coral yourself as a hobbyist in my mind you are nuts. Its a pest for a reason, we are trying to rid ourselves of them not just deal or live with them. :crazy:

So what will be your qt regimine when ordering from these vendors "without pests"? Just wondering because mine will be the same regardless of what they say they do. I'm not taking anyones word for what they say when it comes to this!

It should still stay the same. Thats the whole point that it should be a double shot of quality QT with the hobbyist and the vendor to assure no pests make it.

I sold fw fish online on a fairly large scale and I know what is involved when large shipments need to go into QT (you will NEVER have enough tanks). Even if changes are made to the industry it will still be "Buyer Beware".

I've known my fair share of fish vendors, specifically FW like yourself, and would overall agree with you that it may be tougher than we are making it out to be. However coral aren't fish. You shouldn't need hundreds upon hundreds of gallons like you do to QT PBass, arowana, discus, large catfish, hundreds of tetras, etc.

 

[82engineer]

The buck always starts and stops with you as an individual. It is always your responsibility to qt properly regardless of what a store or vendor says they did. Because if you don't you only have yourself to blame!

 

[Pete polyp]

I have already made my opinion clear, and I will follow up with what I have already said....

There are vendors and wholesalers already selling pest free corals. These happen to be the biggest companies in the game and moving way more than your brick and mortar store. Its very possible for people to have better quality livestock than what some have considered acceptable. Hobbyists should expect better from vendors, vendors expect better from wholesalers, wholesalers expect better from suppliers and suppliers expect better from collectors.